ATB missing slam

[wank]

Lord help these people!They seem to not understand W would have splintered with a K less than what he has.

Without ♥K 5 level would not be safe if E made a move.

 

the 4441 shape is a big negative. i wouldn't splinter on the west hand minus the king of hearts, buy yes there are hands where i'd be off at the 5-level with a poor split. still, not making 1 try is pessimistic in the extreme.

[billw55]

Is it such a great slam? Seems like we need trumps to break and one of two finesses, which is about 50% (albeit before the opening lead).

[Cyberyeti]

Lord help these people!They seem to not understand W would have splintered with a K less than what he has.

Without ♥K 5 level would not be safe if E made a move.

 

a) I prob wouldn't splinter with a K less

b) If I did the auction would go 4♣-4♦-4♥ end because partner would know I could easily be splintering on that

[GrahamJson]

I'm with MrAce on this. West holds an absolute monster yet slam is far from laydown. Maybe I'd bid 4D on the east hand, but with such poor trumps and most of my values in clubs I think I would ld probably sign off.

 

Incidentally, I'm surprised that no one has suggested opening the west hand 2C. I've seen worse 2C openers.

[msjennifer]

I'm with MrAce on this. West holds an absolute monster yet slam is far from laydown. Maybe I'd bid 4D on the east hand, but with such poor trumps and most of my values in clubs I think I would ld probably sign off.

 

Incidentally, I'm surprised that no one has suggested opening the west hand 2C. I've seen worse 2C openers.

Yes.We see many a player opening 2C with worse holdings.Why no one suggested it on this hand is they have not the machinery how to develop it further when responders bids 2D,

[MrAce]

a) I prob wouldn't splinter with a K less

b) If I did the auction would go 4♣-4♦-4♥ end because partner would know I could easily be splintering on that

 

Ok I understand that.

 

But when people debate bridge hands they really do not care what Cyber plays. Or whether Wank made his comment because he was not expecting a 4441 hand to splinter.

These are your custom evaluations and are not anywhere close to what most people, including almost all good players play.

• A 4441 hand is a splinter hand for %99 of the people.
• A King less than this is a perfect textbook splinter hand for % 99 of the people.

This does not mean you two are wrong or right.

[GrahamJson]

Yes.We see many a player opening 2C with worse holdings.Why no one suggested it on this hand is they have not the machinery how to develop it further when responders bids 2D,

 

True, although I have seen some, actually quite a few, rebid 2NT on 4441. Personally I prefer rebidding 2H. If you were a little stronger you would have no choice. I assume that you wouldn't open 1D on AQJx AKQX AKJx X.

[Cyberyeti]

Ok I understand that.

 

But when people debate bridge hands they really do not care what Cyber plays. Or whether Wank made his comment because he was not expecting a 4441 hand to splinter.

These are your custom evaluations and are not anywhere close to what most people, including almost all good players play.

• A 4441 hand is a splinter hand for %99 of the people.
• A King less than this is a perfect textbook splinter hand for % 99 of the people.

This does not mean you two are wrong or right.

 

Which doesn't address point b), if you splinter on that, you have to adjust what you move with and the hand opposite becomes a clear pass over splinter/cue/signoff. As it happens the bigger hand doesn't sign off.

 

I didn't really go by what I play, because 4♣ is categorically a void splinter for us, but a stiff for most people.

[miamijd]

East can't really do much more than 4h, b/c as others have noted, West could be weaker yet still push to at least the 5-level over a 4d "Last Train" bid.

 

I think the problem is that the pair is putting too much pressure on the 4C bid. You can't have a bid that takes up more than two full levels and that could be anywhere from 16 to 21 HCP with a stiff/void. It's too wide a range. Since the splinter takes up a lot of room, the logical choice is for the splinter to take up the lower half+ of this range (i.e., go on only with a really good hand or with a magic fit), with the upper half handled by something like:

 

1D 1H

2S 3C (4SF)

3H 3NT

4H

 

Now East knows that West has a stiff/void club (has four in both majors, and with 4432, he'd have opened 2NT with 20-21 or raised to 4H immediately with 19) with a hand too good for an immediate 4C splinter. With East's hand, I think he can either use key-card or else bid 5H to ask about trump. Still, although it's a pretty good slam, it's not like it's one that I'm heartbroken if I miss; there's a decent chance it goes set.

 

Cheers,

mike

[cliffjenn]

[hv=pc=n&w=saqj5hakq6daj83c4&e=s62ht742dk72cakj5&d=w&v=0&b=14&a=1dp1hp4cp4hppp]266|200[/hv]

Use Dual-Forcing Bidding system in YJS (YANG's JUMP SHIFTS), which will be 2C* after series of bidding and requests, and will target a slam without any sweat;

 

2C* (19-21 points; Unbalances; 2D* opening is 22+ or 8 1/2 QWTs); 2D* (Waiting Bid)

This 2C* (19-21 ponts; )opening will SAVE lots of funny missing game (such as 19 point vs 4,5 points; and 21 points vs 3,4 points in natural bidding systems)

CASE 1.

1. 2H (5+ Hs)

2. 2S (5+ Ss) -> 2NT* (asking for 2nd suit)

CASE 2.

2NT (No 5-card major) -> 3C* (Asking)

CASE 3.

3D* (4-4-4-1 singleton in C) -> Many asking bids follow

 

YJS has many weapons in targeting slams...

 

 

[cliffjenn]

TEST ONLY

[msjennifer]

Ok I understand that.

 

But when people debate bridge hands they really do not care what Cyber plays. Or whether Wank made his comment because he was not expecting a 4441 hand to splinter.

These are your custom evaluations and are not anywhere close to what most people, including almost all good players play.

• A 4441 hand is a splinter hand for %99 of the people.
• A King less than this is a perfect textbook splinter hand for % 99 of the people.

This does not mean you two are wrong or right.

A 2D opening played as multi serves no purpose as practically all opponents know how to counter that.A weak 2D opening is also useless against any but novices and beginners.It was and still now my "personal" opinion to use it as is used in the Blue Team Club System for any 4441 hands with 17 to 24 HCP.It obviates the necessity to use splinters which only describe a 4441(any) but does not describe the exact values in the 3 suits.If the 2D opening is used as above then it is the responder who describes his hand and the opener

Is enabled to reach the right contract.

[wank]

A 2D opening played as multi serves no purpose as practically all opponents know how to counter that.A weak 2D opening is also useless against any but novices and beginners.It was and still now my "personal" opinion to use it as is used in the Blue Team Club System for any 4441 hands with 17 to 23 HCP.It obviates the necessity to use splinters which only describe a 4441(any) but does not describe the exact values in the 3 suits.If the 2D opening is used as above then it is the responder who describes his hand and the opener

Is enabled to reach the right contract.

 

i predict a sharp mrace response.

[cherdano]

A 2D opening played as multi serves no purpose as practically all opponents know how to counter that.

Not true.

A weak 2D opening is also useless against any but novices and beginners.

Not true.

[Cyberyeti]

A 2D opening played as multi serves no purpose as practically all opponents know how to counter that.A weak 2D opening is also useless against any but novices and beginners.It was and still now my "personal" opinion to use it as is used in the Blue Team Club System for any 4441 hands with 17 to 23 HCP.It obviates the necessity to use splinters which only describe a 4441(any) but does not describe the exact values in the 3 suits.If the 2D opening is used as above then it is the responder who describes his hand and the opener

Is enabled to reach the right contract.

 

A multi is used because it frees up other bids, not because it's a brilliant bid in itself, it's the ability to use 2M for other hand types that makes a multi worth considering as part of an overall package. When I used to play one regularly, we used the strong 4441 as one of the multi options.

 

Weak 2♦ can work well, particularly if you play it VERY wide ranging. It causes a particular problem where the next hand is say 4234 and just below a 2N overcall.

[nullve]

A weak 2D opening is also useless against any but novices and beginners.It was and still now my "personal" opinion to use it as is used in the Blue Team Club System for any 4441 hands with 17 to 23 HCP.

I'm not convinced that, in 1st seat,

 

P = either standard or suitable for a Weak 2♦ opening that doesn't overlap with 1♦/3♦

2♦ = 17-23 hcp, (4441) [frequency in 1st seat: about 1 in 500 deals]

7N = idle

 

beats

 

P = standard

2♦ = Weak 2♦ that doesn't overlap with 1♦/3♦

7N = 17-23 hcp, (4441) [frequency in 1st seat: about 1 in 500 deals],

 

although it almost certainly does on this particular hand.

[mycroft]

If you truly believe that a weak 2♦ call doesn't work well - I would argue that, especially, as said above, if it's "wide-ranging"; after all, a lead-director, a save target (or at least a preemptive raise target), and taking away the entire 1-level (and with the common "1NT opener" hand, "forcing" them to use their 2NT system instead) is better than "nothing" - and you don't want to Multi (which, yes, is only there so your 2M bids can be +EV), then I would suggest a better bid than the Full Roman is the F-word.

 

Proponents of Flannery say that they "never" get a bad result when they open it. People on the other side of the fence tend to disagree, but it *is* a very effective call. I just think that the alternatives are better, and the Flannery hands can be quite reasonably handled in a standard manner (for the few times they come up). You clearly don't; so why not play a very effective, relatively common, meaning?

[msjennifer]

If you truly believe that a weak 2♦ call doesn't work well - I would argue that, especially, as said above, if it's "wide-ranging"; after all, a lead-director, a save target (or at least a preemptive raise target), and taking away the entire 1-level (and with the common "1NT opener" hand, "forcing" them to use their 2NT system instead) is better than "nothing" - and you don't want to Multi (which, yes, is only there so your 2M bids can be +EV), then I would suggest a better bid than the Full Roman is the F-word.

 

Proponents of Flannery say that they "never" get a bad result when they open it. People on the other side of the fence tend to disagree, but it *is* a very effective call. I just think that the alternatives are better, and the Flannery hands can be quite reasonably handled in a standard manner (for the few times they come up). You clearly don't; so why not play a very effective, relatively common, meaning?

I do like to play Flannery much when playing with a partner who plays a standard system and have found it very useful when the suit quality of the major suits is well defined and the range kept as 12/17,as with 18 plus one can always make a reverse bid.

[MrAce]

i predict a sharp mrace response.

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

 

Na, I am not good at arguing about conventions. I am sure she knows more conventions than I will ever do.

[Phil]

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

 

Na, I am not good at arguing about conventions. I am sure she knows more conventions than I will ever do.

 

Dude, she knows more than Marshall.

 

So that includes everyone but Kokish and Rodwell. And Ken Rexford.

[benlessard]

Pretty good example for why for the last 7 or 8 years all my splinters are void. Splinter that can be void or singleton are just too costly.

 

If 4C is exactly singleton 4D is obvious. If 4C is void 4H is obvious.

If 4C is either, 4D is clearly the % bid in a weak NT setup but close in a strong NT setup. Expect a fair amount of 5 level going down when opener got a void and move over 4D.

[dboxley]

I haven't looked at the other replies so this might be redundant but give 100% to W, this hand is an ace too good for that splinter.

 

A reasonable auction is:

 

1♦ 1♥

2♠ anything

jump to 4♥ (a hand too good for a splinter)

[phil_20686]

I think east can bid 4d. The trumps are not brilliant but you might still be able to play in diamonds and sometimes (quite a lot!) partner just has the right hand for you Axx AKxx AQxxx x Is typical, if good, and there are plenty of hands like Axx AJTx AQJxx x where intermediate hearts give you a good slam opposite moderate values.

 

I do not think its crystal clear to bid 4d because it is quite hard to construct typical hands where slam is rock solid, and that is usually a pretty good bar for whether you should move, since there are risks. Even partner having really good hands like KQx KQJx AQJxxx - can easily end up too high, and to be rock solid partner probably needs something like Ax AKJT AQJxxx x, which is probably not sitting 4h.