Two Bidding Questions

[deftist]

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I think 1NT opening was standard (maybe 1c was better?). Partner bids Stayman and I was going to respond by 2d, but West intervenes and stole my move :(

 

What should I do? Just pass and hope partner will bid again? I really don't want to be defending with 24+ points on our side but felt a bit lost. Is my partner forced to bid again against 2d? Am I forced to rebid after that 2d?

 

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Looked like a good spot to takeout double, but I was not sure if I should show my 5-card major first by overcalling 1s.

 

After I doubled, East kicks in with 1s and partner passes. Then West rebids 2d. Do I just pass here because I have no 5-card unbid suit? If East did not bid 1s I would have (obviously) overcalled 2s here, but bleh..

[manudude03]

On the first one, just pass. Partner will reopen if he has an invite or better. On the second, you have a clear 1S overcall. Having doubled, then you really need to pass now, and would not bid 2S now even if spades hadn't been mentioned as it shows a much better hand than this.

[Stephen Tu]

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I think 1NT opening was standard (maybe 1c was better?). Partner bids Stayman and I was going to respond by 2d, but West intervenes and stole my move :(

1nt is totally normal if this is in your point range.

 

What should I do? Just pass and hope partner will bid again? I really don't want to be defending with 24+ points on our side but felt a bit lost. Is my partner forced to bid again against 2d? Am I forced to rebid after that 2d?

 

The opponent's bid has relieved you of the responsibility to keep the auction alive. So you can just pass (presumably denying a 4 cd major, but more complicated agreements are possible). doubling 2d presumably would show good diamonds and suggest defending.

 

Your side does *not* necessarily have 24+ points. Stayman *does not guarantee 8 points*! Partner is allowed to bid stayman on zero points with normal agreements, a very standard maneuver with short clubs, ideally 4=4=5=0 shape, but sometimes also 4=4=4=1, and possiblly even (34)51 type shapes. The idea is when you are weak, it's worth hoping to get to a 2d/2h/2s partial where the club shortness becomes a potential ruffing value and entry to a weak dummy. Whereas passing 1nt may lead to declarer having to always lead away from his own hand.

 

Many players also play "garbage stayman" allowing responder to bid 2c with a hand weak with both majors, intending to bid 2H (some people also play 2S as weak, with longer spades, e.g. 54xx) if partner bids 2d in response to stayman. This extends the concept to hands without short clubs.

 

If you pass 2d, partner knows your combined point range a lot better than you do, since your range is limited. You've already shown 15-17, passing 2d didn't change your opening bid. So then this allows partner to pass if he was weak, or keep on bidding if game is possible. If he is worried about diamond stoppers he can try 3d, then with no stopper yourself you can try 4 clubs and either play that or 5 clubs, or partner might bid a strongish 4 cd major and you can try a 4-3 fit. With solid diamond stopper himself partner can just bid some number of notrump.

 

As for the other one, whenever you have a tossup between 1 level major overcall and takeout double at the 1 level, you should prefer the overcall unless really strong (18/19+). This is because it's really hard to find 5-3 fits otherwise. Partner is almost never going to bid a 3cd suit, and you bidding the 5 cd suit shows a lot stronger hand if you double first. There might be some exceptions where with some 45xx's one might choose an off-shape Michaels call, e.g. with AKJx QJxxx xxx x one might try 1♦-2♦ to not lose the spades, as you don't want to takeout double over diamond raises (partner bids clubs)

 

The other suit(s) might be found later if

- opps raise and it's still low, you can takeout double

- opps raise and partner doubles, responsive

[apollo1201]

On the first one, partner knows you opened 1NT and knows how to add up HCPs, so is not really going to let 2D unless he made a semi-psych Stayman with some weak 3-suited hand with short C (intending to pass 2DHS from you). With your prime values and 5-cd suit, you could be tempted to bid 3C that at least are better played by partner, but it is not obliged and bidding is not finished anyway.

 

On the 2nd one, your hand was actually not a great candidate for a take out double as the risk of burrying the spades is too importand (you might end up in a 43 H fit instead of 52 or 53 in S, and you clearly do not have enough to X and show your suit next). Now you've doubled, you don't really have extras to show, so pass. Again, partner saw you Xed the 1st round and will know what to do (maybe he is loaded with 4 or 5 D and has no suit to bid, or maybe responder repeats his S and you will be happy defending). In all cases, acing again would be a gross distortion of your values (HCPs and/or suit length).

[awm]

There might be some exceptions where with some 45xx's one might choose an off-shape Michaels call, e.g. with AKJx QJxxx xxx x one might try 1♦-2♦ to not lose the spades, as you don't want to takeout double over diamond raises (partner bids clubs)

 

I was in full agreement with Stephen Tu, until he got to this line. Very much disagree with Michaels on 4-5; would never make that call!

 

Short summary on the two hands in question is: 1. Pass and let partner do something intelligent. 2. Overcall of 1♠ initially would have been better. Pass is the best of options now.

[rmnka447]

With the first hand, you're 1 NT opening is entirely normal if playing strong NTs (15-17). After 2 ♦, you should pass and let partner initiate any further action. Partner's hand can be anything from 0 points ( ♠ xxxx ♥ xxxx ♦ xxxx ♣ x) to unlimited at this point. If partner has less than invitational values he/she can pass. With invitational values or better, partner will make another call.

 

One discussion you should have with partner is what a free bid by you over 2 ♦ should show. If you play "garbage Stayman", then it's probably better to restrict a 2 ♥ or 2 ♠ free bid to hands where you've opened 1 NT with a 5 card major. If partner reopens with a double, you can bid 3 ♣ with the actual hand you had. If you would have had a 4 card major, you could bid it over the reopening double. If partner bids a suit it ought to be 5+ cards -- so a 2 ♥ or 2 ♠ reopening bid ought to imply 4 cards in the other major else responder would have just transferred.

 

With the second hand, I also agree with overcalling 1 ♠ rather than doubling. Normally, a double followed by a rebid in a suit shows the approximately 16-18 point "strong" overcall hand. Over 2 ♦ here, you pass because your LHO(East) has shown 4 ♠ behind you -- so ♠ likely won't play well and there's no guarantee of another fit. But let's say that LHO(East) had bid 2 ♦ (6-10) passed back to you. Then you could reopen with a double showing a willingness to compete further with a 5 card ♠ suit, about opening count, and 3+ cards in the unbid suit. Your partner ought to have a pretty good idea about where to place the contract from that description.

[Kaitlyn S]

Deftist, I suggest you read this thread which discusses the initial defensive action which might help with your second question.

 

Initial Defensive Action

 

On your first question, I agree with the others. When you open 1NT, your partner knows the combined assets of the partnership and is the captain. Your partner will only pass if he deems it correct to pass. You, who have no idea what partner has, and having defined your hand well, should stay out of the way.

[Kaitlyn S]

duplicate post :(

[deftist]

Thanks all for your replies :)

 

One further question -- is it not required to have about 8 HCPs to bid Stayman? That is what I was told a while ago, but I guess it actually makes sense to do it with less points because the responses are mostly (entirely?) limited to 2d, 2h, and 2s, so the responder should be able to place the contract in the partscore. But then again, what other conditions have to be met for these "looser" Stayman?

[deftist]

Deftist, I suggest you read this thread which discusses the initial defensive action which might help with your second question.

 

Initial Defensive Action

 

On your first question, I agree with the others. When you open 1NT, your partner knows the combined assets of the partnership and is the captain. Your partner will only pass if he deems it correct to pass. You, who have no idea what partner has, and having defined your hand well, should stay out of the way.

 

Thanks Kaitlyn -- I have been enjoying your problems a lot.

 

I do agree that 1S should be prioritised over takeout double here because we cannot easily find a 5-3 fit. If partner coincidentally bids Spade though, I can still raise the suit because it is not a new suit and thus I don't have to have 18-19+ points, right?

 

And a side question, for my RHO to overcall 2d over my partner's Stayman, what would he need? The same requirements as when he is overcalling my 1NT without Stayman? Also, the same requirements as when he is overcalling my 1h or 1s? I was thinking a good 5-card suit or 6-card suit with about 10-12 HCP, but I might be way off here.

[Kaitlyn S]

Thanks Kaitlyn -- I have been enjoying your problems a lot.

 

I do agree that 1S should be prioritised over takeout double here because we cannot easily find a 5-3 fit. If partner coincidentally bids Spade though, I can still raise the suit because it is not a new suit and thus I don't have to have 18-19+ points, right?

Right, but your raise shows a possibility of making game despite his inability to make a jump advance. Since psrtner's maximum is about a bad 10 points, you need at least 16 counting distribution to raise. I would raise with your hand, judging the five card support and a singleton diamond to make the hand worth about 17.

And a side question, for my RHO to overcall 2d over my partner's Stayman, what would he need? The same requirements as when he is overcalling my 1NT without Stayman? Also, the same requirements as when he is overcalling my 1h or 1s? I was thinking a good 5-card suit or 6-card suit with about 10-12 HCP, but I might be way off here.

It's by partnership agreement. If you played 2D as showing the majors (a possible convention by partnership agreement, definitely not standard), you would not tend to show the majors against the opponents' Stayman so it is not necessarily the same thing.

 

Normally when playing against a strong notrump, your overcalls are nuisance bids to make their bidding more difficult; you are conceding that your side doesn't have a game so you are essentially preempting without jumping. (Make sure partner is on her same wavelength.)

 

Even if you wish to show strength wuth your immediate overcall, when the opponents bid Stayman, they are almost always trying for game so it doesn't make sense that your 2D overcall shows strength. I would overcall 2D on S-654 H-65 D-AQJT73 C-92 to ensure a diamond lead. Since we would virtually never have a game after the opponents' Stayman, why promise values?

[GrahamJson]

One other point. Some players like to bid 1S after an oppo's take out double as a psych on two or three small cards, usually with support for the suit opened. It is important to play a double of the 1S bid as showing spades, not as some sort of negative double, as it would be following a raise.

 

In the example yo gave I would be very suspicious of the 1S bid and if you played a double of it as being take out it will succeed in keeping you out of your spade fit.

[msjennifer]

It appears you don't play garbage Stayman and my polite and humble request to you is continue with the 8 + Stayman till you form a fixed partnership and discuss it in details. It is my personal opinion not to use garbage Stayman when vulnerable as,against good opponents ,you may pay a sizable penalty.Since your partner has promised 8+ HCP he has promised to keep the bidding open upto 2NT level( provided you do not play Smolen) and so he will try his best to describe his hand accordingly and you will have your chance then.As regards the second hand a one spade overcall is the best one.If your LHO lands in a NT contract you do want partner to make an opening lead of spade ,don't you ? If you start with a double and then bid spades over partners bid ( and in quite a few hands he may have very little ) it shows a single suited hand of 16 to 18 HCP,which you do not have,Other posts have given other details already so I shall not duplicate those again.Best Luck to you.

[nekthen]

I agree with pass on hand 1 and that 1S is better than dbl on hand 2, but what do we think is going on now?

 

After 1d dbl East did not redbl so may well have less than 10 points. He bid 1S which may or may not be a psyche and his partner retreated to 2d. My partner could easily have a good hand with diamonds. If we pass it round to partner, his double would be asking us to choose a suit, so he has to pass and if opps are going off, they may well be getting a good score, so my vote goes to a second double. I do not think this can hurt and may yield a useful penalty

[mycroft]

There is a concept in bridge bidding called captaincy. Once you have described your hand to a limited nature, partner is captain, and your job is only to answer questions and follow orders. This is a good thing, and you should attempt to limit your hand and make partner captain as soon as possible (of course, partner should be doing the same thing, if they're the one with the easy-to-limit hand).

 

1NT is the classic "limit bid"; you have defined your hand to within 2 points and your general shape to within one card (usually). Good on you for bidding it on #1; now follow instructions. You don't have a 4-card major; you don't have a surprise for the opponents (like you would if your minors were switched); you don't have to keep the auction open for partner in case she has a huge hand; so pass and trust captain. Your question about "what partner showed" and "I don't want to defend undoubled with 24+ high" implies that you don't trust partner to captain. Even if you're right, it's a bad habit to get into. Partner will either learn, or you will find a new partner; but if you keep taking her decisions away from her, *she* will be the one finding a new partner.

 

On the second, I tend to agree with everyone again (I prefer the overcall); but after your double, in this auction, your options are double again or pass. Double-and-bid-a-suit shows a huge hand - 20+ or so, with an effectively self-supporting suit - and you're not nearly strong enough for that. Yeah, you have more than you promised for your first double, and taking that anaemic spade suit away doesn't downgrade your hand much; but partner *will* bid 2♥, and will play the 4-3. 4-3 fits (you'll hear the term "Moysian", from an 1930s player who championed them) are hard to play, especially by newer players. I would probably pass, and see if partner can scrape up something if it comes around to her. If I double again, and it all falls apart for partner, I'll apologize (If it works, of course, then I was brilliant).

 

Please note, these are all good questions and imply that you are thinking about the game! Everybody has to learn about captaincy sometime; everybody has to learn about "double and show all suits or bid the long suit" sometime.

[Left2Right]

The reason you were uncomfortable on hand one was that no one has given you the advantage of knowing The Captain's Rule; it's a mandatory ingredient for understanding all bidding sequences no matter which major system you play. Try my visual tutorial on it at Captain's Hat.

[iandayre]

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I think 1NT opening was standard (maybe 1c was better?). Partner bids Stayman and I was going to respond by 2d, but West intervenes and stole my move :(

 

What should I do? Just pass and hope partner will bid again? I really don't want to be defending with 24+ points on our side but felt a bit lost. Is my partner forced to bid again against 2d? Am I forced to rebid after that 2d?

 

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Looked like a good spot to takeout double, but I was not sure if I should show my 5-card major first by overcalling 1s.

 

After I doubled, East kicks in with 1s and partner passes. Then West rebids 2d. Do I just pass here because I have no 5-card unbid suit? If East did not bid 1s I would have (obviously) overcalled 2s here, but bleh..

 

First hand, 1NT 100% correct. Good luck finding a sensible rebid after a 1C opener and a 1 of a Major response. Over the 2D interference, an easy and automatic pass. You have described no 4 card major and no strong holding in D - a good description I must say. The second hand is not a takeout double, it is a 1S overcall. Obviously the auction would have gone quite differently had that call been made.

[akwoo]

Right, but your raise shows a possibility of making game despite his inability to make a jump advance. Since psrtner's maximum is about a bad 10 points, you need at least 16 counting distribution to raise. I would raise with your hand, judging the five card support and a singleton diamond to make the hand worth about 17.

 

I guess this is still the standard agreement, but I don't like it, and my understanding is that experts have been moving away from it for years.

 

My preference is that a simple raise shows nothing but 4 card support (since the Law says you should compete to the 2 level), and with 16-18, you'd cue and then pass (or make a simple preference back to the suit), with 19-20, you jump raise, and with 21+, you cue and then cue again.

[deftist]

Thank you so much again for your detailed posts. I am learning a lot!

 

Kaitlyn: you said my raise will show a possibility of making game, but does that hold true in a competitive bidding too? Say I double, my LHO passes and partner bids 1s. Should I just pass with minimum (say 4 spades with 12-15 points) instead of raising to 2S? I know I probaby cannot reach game opposite 10 points tops (unless the fit is good), but I wouldn't want to let opponents in easily with something like 2c, 2d, 2h. If I pass partner might think we have a 4-3 fit in spades instead of 4-4 and not compete further, no? :S

[msjennifer]

Right, but your raise shows a possibility of making game despite his inability to make a jump advance. Since psrtner's maximum is about a bad 10 points, you need at least 16 counting distribution to raise. I would raise with your hand, judging the five card support and a singleton diamond to make the hand worth about 17.

 

It's by partnership agreement. If you played 2D as showing the majors (a possible convention by partnership agreement, definitely not standard), you would not tend to show the majors against the opponents' Stayman so it is not necessarily the same thing.

 

Normally when playing against a strong notrump, your overcalls are nuisance bids to make their bidding more difficult; you are conceding that your side doesn't have a game so you are essentially preempting without jumping. (Make sure partner is on her same wavelength.)

 

Even if you wish to show strength wuth your immediate overcall, when the opponents bid Stayman, they are almost always trying for game so it doesn't make sense that your 2D overcall shows strength. I would overcall 2D on S-654 H-65 D-AQJT73 C-92 to ensure a diamond lead. Since we would virtually never have a game after the opponents' Stayman, why promise values?

Once the 9 card fit is discovered the HTC count is immaterial and the distributional count and the Losing Tricks Count comes in to rule the hands. If the pair knows how to use the Short Sui Try AND the Long Suit Try in depth it does not require 10 HCP with responder,I would like to ( pardon for the sarcasm) bring to mind the hand in which a pair holding together only 5 (five)HCP scores 7Spades xx.Opponents holding 35 HCP cannot win a single trick even double dummy.Too much value must not be given to HTC count which plays a better role in Balanced hands not holding even one 5 card suit.One also has to keep the bidding by opponents into consideration.I shall certainly give a raise if at all I make a TOD and partner bids a surprising 1S in this hand.

[Kaitlyn S]

Thank you so much again for your detailed posts. I am learning a lot!

 

Kaitlyn: you said my raise will show a possibility of making game, but does that hold true in a competitive bidding too? Say I double, my LHO passes and partner bids 1s. Should I just pass with minimum (say 4 spades with 12-15 points) instead of raising to 2S? I know I probaby cannot reach game opposite 10 points tops (unless the fit is good), but I wouldn't want to let opponents in easily with something like 2c, 2d, 2h. If I pass partner might think we have a 4-3 fit in spades instead of 4-4 and not compete further, no? :S

When the bidding has gone 1D Dbl Pass 1S P, the advancer is about 0-9 and the doubler is unlimited and there is a reasonable chance for game. With both partners having such wide ranges, you need to use your room to determine whether you have the strength for game, and raising to 2S just to show four spades makes doubler's ranges too wide for effective communication. Note that both responder and opener passed on their last turn so letting them in now to compete successfully after a later 2S bid (you pass 1S now but will later compete to 2S eith 4 trump wuthout misleading partner) isn't too much of a concern. Yes, it is a small concern but I think getting the game decision right is a larger concern.

 

The equation changes if opener buds again. Say it goes 1D Dbl Pass 1S 2D. Now you have to worry about lot about the declare/defend decision and a 2S bid to show 4 puts partner in a good position to know what to do over responder's 3D bid if it comes, and also stops opener from buying the hand in 2D if partner can't compete. The game strength issues are still there, but opener's 2D bid has made the competitive aspect more important. I believe that Mike Lawrence says in his book on doubles that the raise after opener bids again shows 4 trump and a little more than minimum, maybe 14.