1C-X-? and then what?

[kenberg]

There are some strange ideas going on here. A redouble says "I have a good defensive hand, maybe we can get a good penalty here." After this all further doubles should be for penalties. Hence the idea that you can now double 2S for TO is silly. What would you bid with a 4441 hand with good spades? A corollary to this is that perhaps any pass should be considered forcing (unless maybe if opener makes a weak rebid).

 

Of course this is largely academic as the north hand is not a redouble but a 1D or 1H bid, depending on your methods. (With a less unbalanced hand 2NT, showing a good raise to 3 comes into the picture.)

 

I imagine you are right, but often that is not the way it goes. This was from yesterday.

 

 

P P 1D X

XX 1H P P

X

 

This double could be for penaltied but it seemed unlikely and it was not intended as penalties. Of course there was nothing to say that I, the 1D opener, might not have four hearts and then I can do as I think best. I think if a person cannot stand having partner pass a double, then he probably shouldn't double. So it seems to me this could be a hand that can stand a penalty pass, but really is just competing.

 

Now weird things can happen. For reasons I cannot explain, although it was late and I ahs had some wine, I saw the auction as

 

P P 1D X

XX 1H P 2H

X

 

I still didn't think I should pass with my Qx in hearts so I bid 3D on my AKxxx. Probably those who actually saw the auction correctly were wondering what on Earth I was doing, but they went on to 3H off 1.

 

I do agree that after XX further doubles have a penalty flavor to them.

[kenberg]

I know it's a bit old fashioned but for me 1c is natural and now I'd bid an inverted 2c.

1nt is 6-9 balanced, 2nt preemptive and 3c 'mixed'.

 

After a double? And on four cards? I don't think 1C-X-2C inverted is old fashioned. It might or might not be a good approach but I think it is an unusual approach.

[GrahamJson]

I imagine you are right, but often that is not the way it goes. This was from yesterday.

 

 

P P 1D X

XX 1H P P

X

 

This double could be for penaltied but it seemed unlikely and it was not intended as penalties. Of course there was nothing to say that I, the 1D opener, might not have four hearts and then I can do as I think best. I think if a person cannot stand having partner pass a double, then he probably shouldn't double. So it seems to me this could be a hand that can stand a penalty pass, but really is just competing.

 

Now weird things can happen. For reasons I cannot explain, although it was late and I ahs had some wine, I saw the auction as

 

P P 1D X

XX 1H P 2H

X

 

I still didn't think I should pass with my Qx in hearts so I bid 3D on my AKxxx. Probably those who actually saw the auction correctly were wondering what on Earth I was doing, but they went on to 3H off 1.

 

I do agree that after XX further doubles have a penalty flavor to them.

 

You don't give partner's hand but it sounds like he didn't have his double. After his redouble he could (should?) have passed 2H unless he had excellent trumps. As the bidding went your Qx looks like a great holding on which to pass the double. I'm guessing that your p doubled on Hxx or similar, which I think is wrong.

[msjennifer]

There are some strange ideas going on here. A redouble says "I have a good defensive hand, maybe we can get a good penalty here." After this all further doubles should be for penalties. Hence the idea that you can now double 2S for TO is silly. What would you bid with a 4441 hand with good spades? A corollary to this is that perhaps any pass should be considered forcing (unless maybe if opener makes a weak rebid).

 

Of course this is largely academic as the north hand is not a redouble but a 1D or 1H bid, depending on your methods. (With a less unbalanced hand 2NT, showing a good raise to 3 comes into the picture.)

After a x by West,who has suggested fit for either major,certainly Norths xx suggests a good defence for opponents contract OR An excellent fit for openers suit with ability to play at least to three level in openers suit.If East bids something opener with a normal 13 plus hand has to pass and if he bids something it shows a weak distributional hand unsuitable for defense.Unless East has psyched he certainly has length in spades and that is why he preempted.If South passes it shows a normal hand.North can not see a defense to 2S with his given hand and having xx earlier has an easy bid of 3C.This is how we play it and it may be " silly " in someone's opinion.I have seen players playing the 2Sx as a cooperative double.We don't play it that way.Bidding 3C is good enough which shows the hand appropriately and after this there is every possibility of reaching game with the hand which South holds.Additionally, on the normal hand South doubles 2S if he holds either Kxx or Axx of spade (as the way we play it) This makes it a bit easier for the responder to decide the action which he intends to take.

[GrahamJson]

After a x by West,who has suggested fit for either major,certainly Norths xx suggests a good defence for opponents contract OR An excellent fit for openers suit with ability to play at least to three level in openers suit.If East bids something opener with a normal 13 plus hand has to pass and if he bids something it shows a weak distributional hand unsuitable for defense.Unless East has psyched he certainly has length in spades and that is why he preempted.If South passes it shows a normal hand.North can not see a defense to 2S with his given hand and having xx earlier has an easy bid of 3C.This is how we play it and it may be " silly " in someone's opinion.I have seen players playing the 2Sx as a cooperative double.We don't play it that way.Bidding 3C is good enough which shows the hand appropriately and after this there is every possibility of reaching game with the hand which South holds.Additionally, on the normal hand South doubles 2S if he holds either Kxx or Axx of spade (as the way we play it) This makes it a bit easier for the responder to decide the action which he intends to take.

 

Sorry, but 2NT shows an excellent fit, not a redouble. Otherwise how does opener know how to proceed if the oppo get their bidding boots on. A redouble should always show a defensive hand.

[neilkaz]

Oooo oooo! Another hand where the take out double was XX'ed and things didn't work out so well :rolleyes: .

[PhantomSac]

There are some strange ideas going on here. A redouble says "I have a good defensive hand, maybe we can get a good penalty here." After this all further doubles should be for penalties. Hence the idea that you can now double 2S for TO is silly. What would you bid with a 4441 hand with good spades? A corollary to this is that perhaps any pass should be considered forcing (unless maybe if opener makes a weak rebid).

 

Of course this is largely academic as the north hand is not a redouble but a 1D or 1H bid, depending on your methods. (With a less unbalanced hand 2NT, showing a good raise to 3 comes into the picture.)

 

It is totally normal after a jump that doubles are takeout.

 

If they bid 3s do you still think X would be penalty? Think about it and you will realize that would be unplayable (and in general when you are not in a force [redouble does not and cannot create a force to all leves] you cannot afford to play pen Xs).

[GrahamJson]

Hmm. I don't see why a double wouldn't be for penalties after a jump, even to the three level. Perhaps especially at the three level. Sometimes oppo makes bad bids, it doesn't make sense to base your bidding methods on the assumption that oppo are always right.

[jogs]

There are some strange ideas going on here. A redouble says "I have a good defensive hand, maybe we can get a good penalty here." After this all further doubles should be for penalties. Hence the idea that you can now double 2S for TO is silly. What would you bid with a 4441 hand with good spades? A corollary to this is that perhaps any pass should be considered forcing (unless maybe if opener makes a weak rebid).

This is wrong way thinking. You are warning the opponent with the bigger hand not to raise based solely on points. With a good defensive hand and a misfit, pass. Allow opponents to overbid. Then double them at higher levels.

[kenberg]

I need to think some about all of this. Early on I mentioned that I thought the XX situation after 1M-X is pretty clear cut, but not so much so after 1m-X. I have found this ongoing discussion interesting, I hope others have.

[sfi]

Over the past couple of years my regular partnerships have switched to having a takeout double available after all strength-showing doubles & redoubles. This includes:

1C - (X) - XX

(1NT) - X

1NT - (2D = artificial) - X

 

and so on.

 

It makes constructive bidding much better. Since your side has already shown values and partner is on the lookout to make a takeout double, you don't often lose the ability to penalise them anyway.

[Vampyr]

Over the past couple of years my regular partnerships have switched to having a takeout double available after all strength-showing doubles & redoubles. This includes:

1C - (X) - XX

(1NT) - X

1NT - (2D = artificial) - X

 

and so on.

 

It makes constructive bidding much better. Since your side has already shown values and partner is on the lookout to make a takeout double, you don't often lose the ability to penalise them anyway.

 

I prefer the first double after these starts to be takeout also. A problem does arise, however, when both partners have a penalty double. This is rare though.

[sfi]

I prefer the first double after these starts to be takeout also. A problem does arise, however, when both partners have a penalty double. This is rare though.

 

True, the time when they can get off is when they are actually in the most trouble. It's worth the person in the balancing seat being aware of this and doubling if they can handle the later auction anyway. For instance, they might be able to bid NT with a stopper.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 go after your own contract, unless any bid except XX denies opening bid strength,

start to describe your hand.

 

#2 they are red, ..., partner made a forcing pass, I am trying to go for gold, ... pass,

if this is to reach for me, 4S ... a splinter.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: Just read the comment, that the FP maybe off after a jump, which is certainly true,

the XX should generare FP only up to a given limit, usually up to 2NT.

Luckily those seq. dont come up often.

[jogs]

There are no clear-cut best actions for your partner. But redouble and 3♥ bids are acceptable.

He should have pulled your 3NT bid. It is obvious you do not have a double stop in spades.

You did pass 2♠. He should have pulled 3NT to 4♣. If you rebid 4NT then he can pass.

[kenberg]

There are no clear-cut best actions for your partner. But redouble and 3♥ bids are acceptable.

He should have pulled your 3NT bid. It is obvious you do not have a double stop in spades.

You did pass 2♠. He should have pulled 3NT to 4♣. If you rebid 4NT then he can pass.

 

We will never know what he would have done had I bid 3NT in tempo. Unfortunately I didn't.

 

I like the Phantom suggestion that having made the XX then a later 3S call would be good. A bit scary w/o discussion, but then so is any call at that point.

 

For my own part, I certainly considered 4C instead of 3NT over his 3H, mostly because of worries that turned out to be real.

 

I think he and I have come to think that an initial 1C-(X)-1H call is best. If we have a heart fit, we find it. If not, there is apt to be room to find what we do have. Of course 1H does not show his strength, but he is looking at it and I will learn of it soon.

[tony stack]

Interesting auction, 1C,X, typically XX would show a hand with 10 or more points, as well as potentially wanting to double at least 1 of the suits that would be shown by the opponents later in the auction; the partner did have decent trumps should the opponent have decided to bid Hearts and/or Diamonds

[tony stack]

We will never know what he would have done had I bid 3NT in tempo. Unfortunately I didn't.

 

I like the Phantom suggestion that having made the XX then a later 3S call would be good. A bit scary w/o discussion, but then so is any call at that point.

 

For my own part, I certainly considered 4C instead of 3NT over his 3H, mostly because of worries that turned out to be real.

 

I think he and I have come to think that an initial 1C-(X)-1H call is best. If we have a heart fit, we find it. If not, there is apt to be room to find what we do have. Of course 1H does not show his strength, but he is looking at it and I will learn of it soon.

 

Yes; XX followed by 3S later in the auction (asking for stopper for 3nt as well as advertised shortness in Spades) could very well be the best call as it then allows potentially for a contract in either nt, clubs or possibly even diamonds [not shown by anybody yet]... Did not realize there were 3 pages to this topic already.

 

Edit; after reading all 3 pages looks as though even with the probable 3nt partner should still pull that contract out again (maybe to 4c) as having a double stopper in spades is likely ruled out and they have a void in spades