1C-X-? and then what?

[kenberg]

Club game, matchpoints, S deals, EW vul.

 

I was the 1C opener and I will first give you partner's hand:

[hv=pc=n&n=shkq83dq6432ckq98&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1cdr2spp]133|200[/hv]

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

Now I will give you the hand from my viewpoint:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sat8hj7dat7ca6543&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1cdr2spp3hp]133|200[/hv]

 

After a bit of thought, and it was too much thought to allow partner to pull, I bid 3NT [Not 4NT as I originally mis-typed]. Not good. It makes 5C, and it looks as if 2S can be set two tricks if I start with the heart J and we can manage a trump promotion. Here are all four hands:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sat8hj7dat7ca6543&w=skj76ha952dkj9ct2&n=shkq83dq6432ckq98&e=sq95432ht64d85cj7]399|300[/hv]

 

I am interested both in what you think agreements should be, and what you think of choices that were made.

My thoughts on my choices:

1C. That's the easy part.

Pass over 2S: Usually I defer to the redoubler unless my hand is so shapely I feel a need to show that immediately.

3NT over the 3H: beats me. Myabe I am running five heart tricks and coming up with four more somewhere. I considered 4C but that goes past 3NT and it was not clear to me that this would be right.

 

Obviously osmeone was supposed to do something other than what was done, but I have no idea who or what. N, on the first round, can anticipate at least a 1S bid on his left over the XX, but I don't see where to go with that. Our methods are such that he could have bid 1H over X, and that would neither show five nor deny strength. But that is not saying 1H is the right call.

 

At matchpoints, we need to be in 2SX and I need to lead the heart J. Declarer wins, starts trump. I take my ace, we take our minor suit winners and the top hearts, partner leads his fourth heart and I get another spade. But in reality that is not going to happen. We don't defend 2SX when they have ten trump. So how do we get to 5C?

[ggwhiz]

I think the initial redouble was a poor choice knowing that at LEAST 2♠ by them rates to happen. There goes the bidding room and I've said nothing much.

 

Prefer 1♦ (forcing) or even 2nt if it's limit+ in clubs or limit intending to show the plus later. Who knows how the auction develops from there but after 1♦ I'm not inclined to sit for 3nt with a void.

 

ps. matchpoint hands that belong in 5 of a minor instead of 3nt should be outlawed.

[nullve]

3♥ with only 4 H hardly makes sense unless it's forcing and XX denied 5+ H.

[wank]

Redouble shows a balancedish hand. It's stupid to redoyule rather than show your suits when you know the opps are about to bid several spades.

[kenberg]

3♥ with only 4 H hardly makes sense unless it's forcing and XX denied 5+ H.

 

As you can imagine we never discussed this auction in advance. I am not sure I would say 3H is exactly forcing, but I took it to show a hand with more values than the XX promised so I figured a pass would be a surprise. I briefly, but only briefly, considered it. I figured it to be one of those "Do something intelligent" bids, and those are always risky with me as a partner. I thought/hoped that this was partner's way of showing five hearts and substantial values. Oh well.

 

Auctioons that begin 1M-X-XX are usually pretty clear. After 1M-X parner bids 2NT with four card support and invit values, he XX and then supports M with 3 cards, and so XX and then not supporting is at most two cards.

The auctions that begin 1m-X-XX seem harder to develop.

[steve2005]

1♣-X is a situation which lends itself to transfer responses.

To redouble with 5 clubs is sticking ones head in the sand. Don't you think you should mention the support? correction had 4C

[kenberg]

1♣-X is a situation which lends itself to transfer responses.

To redouble with 5 clubs is sticking ones head in the sand. Don't you think you should mention the support?

 

N, holding four card support, was the redoubler. After 1C-X if N held five clubs we would probably have no trouble ending in clubs.

I don't think partner can really show his clubs on the first round. 1C-X-2NT is exactly a limit raise as we play.

[ 1M-X-2NT is a limit raise or better since it will be pulled to 3M with a minimum, but 1m-X-2NT allows opener to pass.]

I suppose 1N-X-2NT could be on four cards, but not on this hand I think. Maybe a flat hand that thinks 2NT a reasonable spot.

 

So I think that after 1C-X the choices for N are 1D, 1H, or XX.

 

We do not play transfer responses over the X, or much of anywhere except the traditional spots, but I am open to hearing about them.

[MrAce]

Your partner made the mistake of starting with redouble.

Redouble is not a gate to go through with all 11+ hcp hands. You can use it as xfer or you can use it as balanced penalty oriented to at least 2 of 3 unbid suits.

Double by opponents does not affect our bids. 1♣--(DBL)--1x = 4+ x suit 5+ hcp for example. There are many people who thinks this auction shows 5+ x suit and 5-9 hcp. It does not.

[kenberg]

Your partner made the mistake of starting with redouble.

Redouble is not a gate to go through with all 11+ hcp hands. You can use it as xfer or you can use it as balanced penalty oriented to at least 2 of 3 unbid suits.

Double by opponents does not affect our bids. 1♣--(DBL)--1x = 4+ x suit 5+ hcp for example. There are many people who thinks this auction shows 5+ x suit and 5-9 hcp. It does not.

 

Right. Despite this hand, partner would agree that not all 10+ point hands start with a redouble. And 1H would not show. five. But I am still not sure just what should happen.

 

 

Let's say he starts with 1H. He of course expects spades from the opps, although the rul, us white, them red, might restrain them a bit. So let's assume that he bids 1H. I am not sure what rho would do. After the actual call of XX, 2S is weak. But over 1H (or over 1D) I assume that they would play 2S as strong. So she would probably settle for 1S. Now I would, I think, bid 2C. The non-support double would deny three hearts and I think I would want to get my clubs into play here? Or am I fantasizing? I have five clubs, not six, and nobody is forcing me to bid over 1S. Or maybe, now that I think of it, I try 1NT over 1S. Pass seems a little timid. At any rate, once partner learns that I do not have three hearts he can infor that I do have four clubs. And five clubs is likely, since with a 3=2=4=4 shape my opening bid is 1D (as we play). Thus, 1H by N followed by (1S) and then me not making a support double probably works out well.

 

 

I am less certain what happens if he chooses 1D. Rho bids 1S, and now I think X shows four hearts. On a different hand, where fourth hand bids 1H instead of 1S, I like to play that X is a support double of diamonds but I have not yet convinced partner of this. I don't need a double to show four spades, I just bid them.

 

So: 1C-(X)-1D-(1S)-?

[ggwhiz]

So: 1C-(X)-1D-(1S)-?

 

1nt - ? - spade cue

 

? = anything from a pass to some number of spades (usually 2 of them) and the cue shows clubs on my card. Since you already bid 1nt, you should probably not think of 3nt without a 2nd spade stopper on most hands.

[Vampyr]

1♣-X is a situation which lends itself to transfer responses.

To redouble with 5 clubs is sticking ones head in the sand. Don't you think you should mention the support?

 

Also, while partner's redouble was strange, it has worked well for him since he can now make a takeout double.

 

Though I know that some people play penalty doubles here.

[spotlight7]

Transfers after competition offers a number of advantages.

 

You tend to put the stronger defender on lead and sometimes end play them for the opening lead.

 

Bidding space is often saved.

 

Using 1S* as a transfer to NT solves a number of hand types.

[MrAce]

Right. Despite this hand, partner would agree that not all 10+ point hands start with a redouble. And 1H would not show. five. But I am still not sure just what should happen.

 

 

Let's say he starts with 1H. He of course expects spades from the opps, although the rul, us white, them red, might restrain them a bit. So let's assume that he bids 1H. I am not sure what rho would do. After the actual call of XX, 2S is weak. But over 1H (or over 1D) I assume that they would play 2S as strong. So she would probably settle for 1S. Now I would, I think, bid 2C. The non-support double would deny three hearts and I think I would want to get my clubs into play here? Or am I fantasizing? I have five clubs, not six, and nobody is forcing me to bid over 1S. Or maybe, now that I think of it, I try 1NT over 1S. Pass seems a little timid. At any rate, once partner learns that I do not have three hearts he can infor that I do have four clubs. And five clubs is likely, since with a 3=2=4=4 shape my opening bid is 1D (as we play). Thus, 1H by N followed by (1S) and then me not making a support double probably works out well.

 

 

I am less certain what happens if he chooses 1D. Rho bids 1S, and now I think X shows four hearts. On a different hand, where fourth hand bids 1H instead of 1S, I like to play that X is a support double of diamonds but I have not yet convinced partner of this. I don't need a double to show four spades, I just bid them.

 

So: 1C-(X)-1D-(1S)-?

 

I would DBL, I play it support DBL over 1♦ too. 1 NT is also perfectly fine.

But I would start 1♥ with your pd's hand. He knows they will bid spades and he has to make sure your side finds your ♥ fit if there is any as soon as possible.

 

 

[kenberg]

I would DBL, I play it support DBL over 1♦ too. 1 NT is also perfectly fine.

But I would start 1♥ with your pd's hand. He knows they will bid spades and he has to make sure your side finds your ♥ fit if there is any as soon as possible.

 

 

 

 

This is pretty much what I have now come to. First we we see if we can play in hearts. That seems right on general principles.

 

On this hand, after the presumed 1S bid on my right over pard's 1H, I do not make a support double (obviously) . So I have at most two hearts and at most four spades, therefore a four card minor at least. Partner has a good hand, four clubs, and a spade void. I doubt he would have trouble preferring 5C to 3NT unless I absolutely insist on NT.

 

So both on general principles and on this layout in particular, I am now thinking that 1H is the best call.

 

This is not to cut off any other views, but I am starting to settle on 1H as the best choice.

[nullve]

Let's say he starts with 1H. He of course expects spades from the opps, although the rul, us white, them red, might restrain them a bit. So let's assume that he bids 1H. I am not sure what rho would do. After the actual call of XX, 2S is weak. But over 1H (or over 1D) I assume that they would play 2S as strong. So she would probably settle for 1S. Now I would, I think, bid 2C. The non-support double would deny three hearts and I think I would want to get my clubs into play here? Or am I fantasizing? I have five clubs, not six, and nobody is forcing me to bid over 1S.

It makes a huge difference whether 1♣-(X)-1♦-(1♠); 2♣ promises 6+ C or 5+ C, as anyone who has struggled with classical Precision's 2♣ opening (showing 11-15 hcp and either 6+ C or 5C4M) can attest. There simply has to be a way for partner to know whether 2♣ could be on a 5-1 fit (usually terrible) or a 6-1 fit (often best).

 

Or maybe, now that I think of it, I try 1NT over 1S. Pass seems a little timid. At any rate, once partner learns that I do not have three hearts he can infor that I do have four clubs. And five clubs is likely, since with a 3=2=4=4 shape my opening bid is 1D (as we play). Thus, 1H by N followed by (1S) and then me not making a support double probably works out well.

 

Pass is not timid, since partner will know approximately what you have and be able to bid 1N himself, even without a spade stopper. Some even pass systemically with 12-14 bal., 2 H, here so that they can use 1N stay low with 18-19 bal., 2 H.

 

I am less certain what happens if he chooses 1D. Rho bids 1S, and now I think X shows four hearts. On a different hand, where fourth hand bids 1H instead of 1S, I like to play that X is a support double of diamonds but I have not yet convinced partner of this. I don't need a double to show four spades, I just bid them.

 

So: 1C-(X)-1D-(1S)-?

If you play Walsh over 1♣-(X), then there's no need for 1♣-(X)-1♦-(1♠); X to show 4 H, since partner won't have 4 H unless he can can force to game. So playing X as support, or just plain takeout (which it should be by default anyway), seems reasonable.

 

If you don't play Walsh, then you might have a choice between P and 1N, depending on how you play 1N (12-14 vs. 18-19). (2♣ would again promise 6+ C.)

[kenberg]

 

If you play Walsh over 1♣-(X), then there's no need for 1♣-(X)-1♦-(1♠); X to show 4 H, since partner won't have 4 H unless he can can force to game

 

 

 

Yes, this has occurred to me in the non-competitive auctions as well. Mr. Ace notes that he plays 1C-(X or, I assume, P)-1D-(1S)-X as a support double for diamonds, while I only play 1C-(P or X)-1D-(1H)-X as a support double for diamonds. Chalk it up as a plus for Walsh. I don't (usually) play Walsh and I was not playing it with this partner, but it has its advantages.

[PhantomSac]

I think north missed a good bid after 1C X XX 2S p p. Given that after a jump X's are takeout, if north bid 3S I think it would show a hand like this, arguably exactly 0454 (not willing to defend 2S X if partner wants to, hence no X, not a 6 card red suit or 5 clubs to start with XX, and probably not 0544 either to start with XX). If north XXed with the intention to cue next I think that would be pretty reasonable, you might get screwed if they bid to 3S but they're r/w so it's a decent gamble. Honestly I would have started with 1H though and seen what happened.

[Jinksy]

Do we have fit jumps available?

[kenberg]

Do we have fit jumps available?

 

Nope! Maybe we should, but nope.

[kenberg]

I think north missed a good bid after 1C X XX 2S p p. Given that after a jump X's are takeout, if north bid 3S I think it would show a hand like this, arguably exactly 0454 (not willing to defend 2S X if partner wants to, hence no X, not a 6 card red suit or 5 clubs to start with XX, and probably not 0544 either to start with XX). If north XXed with the intention to cue next I think that would be pretty reasonable, you might get screwed if they bid to 3S but they're r/w so it's a decent gamble. Honestly I would have started with 1H though and seen what happened.

 

I will make sure that partner sees this, he will find it interesting. It may be more than we are up for thinking through, but it makes sense.

[msjennifer]

I have no idea of your gadgets.conventions etc but I certainly can comment that the redouble was not a good bid for this hand.WHAT DOES A DOUBLE OF 2 Spades ,(known to be preemptive) mean in your system.? I feel it should show 1444 hand since most players play a one level bid forcing for one round and North did not make any such but redoubled.Personally, I think you have to think aforehand of this sequence as both 1C/D opening can be a 3 carded one (unless you open 1C on two cards).

[kenberg]

I have no idea of your gadgets.conventions etc but I certainly can comment that the redouble was not a good bid for this hand.WHAT DOES A DOUBLE OF 2 Spades ,(known to be preemptive) mean in your system.? I feel it should show 1444 hand since most players play a one level bid forcing for one round and North did not make any such but redoubled.Personally, I think you have to think aforehand of this sequence as both 1C/D opening can be a 3 carded one (unless you open 1C on two cards).

 

Let me check. I see that you are saying the XX was not so good. But then you ask about a double of 2S. I take it you are referring to X after the XX and the 2S, and then X by N after I (South) and West pass. That's the suggestion, right? Certainly possible. As long as it isn't passed out. This particular hand is very favorable for defending 2SX, at least if we find the optimal defense. LOTT to the contrary, there are 10+9=19 total trump and 6+11=17 total tricks. But generally I am not in favor of defending 2SX here. I assume you aren't either. Anyway I, as S, am not leaving a double of 2S in .But if I had four spades? Hmm. But we do beat it.

 

So with a second round double, after the first round XX, we might well find 5C. Maybe we should have anyway, I was allowed to bid clubs over the 3H. I though about it.

 

This has been, for me at least, an interesting discussion. I have become convinced that if history repeats itself, except I am N, I will bid 1H. I think I would have done so, but easy to say now.

[msjennifer]

Let me check. I see that you are saying the XX was not so good. But then you ask about a double of 2S. I take it you are referring to X after the XX and the 2S, and then X by N after I (South) and West pass. That's the suggestion, right? Certainly possible. As long as it isn't passed out. This particular hand is very favorable for defending 2SX, at least if we find the optimal defense. LOTT to the contrary, there are 10+9=19 total trump and 6+11=17 total tricks. But generally I am not in favor of defending 2SX here. I assume you aren't either. Anyway I, as S, am not leaving a double of 2S in .But if I had four spades? Hmm. But we do beat it.

 

So with a second round double, after the first round XX, we might well find 5C. Maybe we should have anyway, I was allowed to bid clubs over the 3H. I though about it.

 

This has been, for me at least, an interesting discussion. I have become convinced that if history repeats itself, except I am N, I will bid 1H. I think I would have done so, but easy to say now.

Yes Sir,you got me right .That is exactly what I meant.I totally agree with all that you have said.Thanks.

[GrahamJson]

There are some strange ideas going on here. A redouble says "I have a good defensive hand, maybe we can get a good penalty here." After this all further doubles should be for penalties. Hence the idea that you can now double 2S for TO is silly. What would you bid with a 4441 hand with good spades? A corollary to this is that perhaps any pass should be considered forcing (unless maybe if opener makes a weak rebid).

 

Of course this is largely academic as the north hand is not a redouble but a 1D or 1H bid, depending on your methods. (With a less unbalanced hand 2NT, showing a good raise to 3 comes into the picture.)

[wanoff]

I know it's a bit old fashioned but for me 1c is natural and now I'd bid an inverted 2c.

1nt is 6-9 balanced, 2nt preemptive and 3c 'mixed'.