Chamaco Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 Hi all, suppose you hold, playing Precision ♠xx♥AQxx♦KQTxx♣xx You are white 1st seat, and at this situation, 1D shows either 4+D max 15 hcp, OR a balanced hand 13-15.1NT opener at this vuln shows 10-12. I have to decide what to open.I do not mind opening 1NT with 5422 but I hate to do it with values concentrated in 2 suits like here. So I open 1D and pard responds 1S. Now I cannot rebid 1NT (that would show 13-15). Should I rebid diamonds or 2 hearts ?What type of hand would the 2 hearts "reverse" show ? ( I assume distributional reverse with 5-5.5 losers, usually has a good 65 D+H). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 2H should show 14-15 with 4H and 6(5) good Ds If you play a 10-12 NT, then open this 1NT. The concentration of values is totally irrelevant. Ask yourself why you are opening 1NT with 10-12. Clearly to cause problems for the opposition. You have the hand - open the bidding! Fwiw Mauro, I play exactly the same. If I have a 4441 with 10-12, I open 1NT. The intent is pre emptive in nature. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 Hi all, suppose you hold, playing Precision ♠xx♥AQxx♦KQTxx♣xx You are white 1st seat, and at this situation, 1D shows either 4+D max 15 hcp, OR a balanced hand 13-15.1NT opener at this vuln shows 10-12. I have to decide what to open.I do not mind opening 1NT with 5422 but I hate to do it with values concentrated in 2 suits like here. So I open 1D and pard responds 1S. Now I cannot rebid 1NT (that would show 13-15). Should I rebid diamonds or 2 hearts ?What type of hand would the 2 hearts "reverse" show ? ( I assume distributional reverse with 5-5.5 losers, usually has a good 65 D+H). You're fixed.. In part by system, but primarily by your decision to open this 1♦.I think that the hand SHOULD be opened 1NT, despite the shape/concentrated values. If you find this unpalatable, then consider opening 1♥ and rebidding in Diamonds. At this point, your only real choice is to rebid 2♦. Reversing into Hearts would show a much better hand. (Please note, if you can't rebid 1NT because this would show a 13-15 HCP point, you sure as hell can't reverse) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbleighton Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 1NT is clear. Live by the sword, die by the sword B)) I LOVE playing 1NT white undoubled, especially when the opener is weak enough that most of the field will be passing it. That's why you're playing 10-12 NT, right? And no, you can't reverse. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted April 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 1NT is clear. Live by the sword, die by the sword B)) I LOVE playing 1NT white undoubled, especially when the opener is weak enough that most of the field will be passing it. That's why you're playing 10-12 NT, right? Agree with most of what you say, BUT: I hate to give to my pard a distorted picture of my hand. This hand is clearly suit-oriented. xx-AQxx-KQTxx-xx and KJx-QTx-Axxx-Jxx Have a totally different playing power. If I oopen the 1st hand 10-12 NT, pard will be too conservative, because I delivered him of a playing strength lower. I mean, I would open 1NT with no second thoughts this hand, same values, but scattered:Ax-Qxxx-KTxxx-Qx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 i'd open this hand 1H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikestar Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 ... I hate to give to my pard a distorted picture of my hand. This hand is clearly suit-oriented. xx-AQxx-KQTxx-xx and KJx-QTx-Axxx-Jxx Have a totally different playing power. If I oopen the 1st hand 10-12 NT, pard will be too conservative, because I delivered him of a playing strength lower. I mean, I would open 1NT with no second thoughts this hand, same values, but scattered:Ax-Qxxx-KTxxx-QxAlso, for 3NT partner needs more strength in the black suits opposite your actual hand than opposite a typical 10-12 NT and has no way to know it. To open 1NT here will cause the enemy problems, but gives up on constructive bidding. Opening 1H is dangerous in a five card major system as partner will often give preference to hearts with a doubleton, even holding 3 diamonds. shall we play our 4-2 fit instead of our 5-3 fit? In a four card major system 1H stands out--partner knows we may have only four and won't give preference on a doubleton, so the worst outcome is a 4-3 heart fit vs. a 5-3 diamond fit: much more palatable. So in your system I would open 1D and rebid 2D. This hand is one of the losing cases for your system no matter how you bid it. No argument against your system--all systems have losing cases. System design has an element of "what mistakes do we prefer to make?" to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 Decide which you like more: 1D then 2D: lies abotu the 6th diamond, risks getting to a 5-1, risks pard overbidding for a game/slam thinking you have 6 potential tricks: 1N: Gets your shape and points right but risks wrongsiding the contract or missing a superior diamond game. 1D then 2H: Not really an option i dont think...gets shape right but points wrong by a king or so. 1H then 2D: Lying about a FIFTH heart which is pretty important :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 1H then 2D: Lying about a FIFTH heart which is pretty important :) unless it isn't a lie, which is the way i prefer to play it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 I would pass with this hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 I would pass with this hand. Impossible... Strong Club Openings are hideous things. If you are going to play strong club, you MUST have a systemic mechanism to open nice 6 losers hands like this one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 1NT is a horrible bid that lucks out since you can run out to 2♦. Barely palatable. 1D-1S-2D, probably likely. 1D-1NT, yick. I open 1D due to no controls in my doubletons. I try to be disciplined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 I would pass with this hand. Impossible... Strong Club Openings are hideous things. If you are going to play strong club, you MUST have a systemic mechanism to open nice 6 losers hands like this one... Playing precision doesnt mean you have to open all 11hcp hands. This is especially true if you play 2/1 gf in precision. What do you lose by passing? I doubt it is much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 I would open 1NT, I consider it best of evils. Only other option imo would be 1D followed by 2D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 I would pass with this hand. Impossible... Strong Club Openings are hideous things. If you are going to play strong club, you MUST have a systemic mechanism to open nice 6 losers hands like this one... Playing precision doesnt mean you have to open all 11hcp hands. This is especially true if you play 2/1 gf in precision. What do you lose by passing? I doubt it is much. As I noted earlier, this is a very good 11 count. I'd be shocked to see a good Precision pair pass this hand. Change the hand to something like ♠ xx♥ AQxx♦ KT98x♣ xx and pass starts looking reasonable... As to what you lose by passing: You lose the ability to start describing your hand before the opponents find their Spade fit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 there's no way i'd pass this hand playing a strong club system... it's even better if 1h is known to be a 2 suiter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 I gave this hand to pard: no bid in 1st/2nd seat due to inability of proper rebid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 dwayne, how is there no rebid if you open 1h? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 dwayne, how is there no rebid if you open 1h? Jimmy, like u said, if playing 4cM, i would open 1H, but if playing 5cM, then pass isnt that bad. The reason is exactly dwayne said, no ideal rebid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 As to what you lose by passing: You lose the ability to start describing your hand before the opponents find their Spade fit... The problem with opening is that by rebid anything you DISTORT your hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 fly, i'm assuming you're talking about 2/1 or sayc... if a 1 bid promises a 2 suited hand and is usually canape, and is 11-16, why is it wrong to open 1h? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 As to what you lose by passing: You lose the ability to start describing your hand before the opponents find their Spade fit... The problem with opening is that by rebid anything you DISTORT your hand. Comment the First: As I said originally, I think that the system that is being imposed on us is flawed Comment the Second: Even so, I'd make the best of it and open a mini-NT or 1♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 fly, i'm assuming you're talking about 2/1 or sayc... if a 1 bid promises a 2 suited hand and is usually canape, and is 11-16, why is it wrong to open 1h? Jimmy, I can find a bidding system that will fit any hand. However, its not productive to do so. When folks posit a question within the context of a specific system, its best if the answer bears some relation to said system... For what its worth, I consider a 1♥ opening reasonable within the context of the system described. However, in doing so, I am conciously claiming that lying about my Heart length is better than passing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 you're right richard, it's easy to construct hands that fit systems... even playing 2/1 long ago (with one partner), our 1h bid was alerted as 4+... that has always been a tough hand, x45x or x4x5... so yes, i'd open 1h with this hand unless my partner adamantly refused to play any 4M openings i would *not* pass it except under that constraint Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted April 16, 2005 Report Share Posted April 16, 2005 I gave this hand to pard: no bid in 1st/2nd seat due to inability of proper rebid. 1D rebid 1nt over 1S. I hope we are playing XYZ and yes I know I just promised 13-15. I assume this is how Meckwell bid all those 23-24 HCP games.BTW is 1S limited to 7-15 HCP as in my 1972 book version I just dusted off?BTW you do not mention and my 1972 book does not say but is a 2h reverse over 1s just bidding out shape or extra? If shape please change my rebid to 2H.If I cannot open this hand in strong club system or sayc or 2/1, I despair.Always thought Precision players open all 11 HCP unbalanced hands, can anyone name a few "name players" who do not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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