ambiguity

[kenberg]

I am going to give you an auction. The hand comes ater.

 

 

2NT 3C

3NT 4D

 

2NT was 20-21 balanced, 3C was Puppet, 3NT denies a four card major.

Quick, what is 4D?

 

 

I was responder, holding four spades and four diamonds. I figured since partner had no major, she has a minor, and maybe it's diamonds. Luckily, it was taken as showing diamonds. But later I was chatting about it and I realized that perhaps a person would bid this way with six hearts and four spades, using the 4D as a transfer to hearts when there is no spade fit?

 

Anyway it continued:

 

 

2NT 3C

3NT 4D

4H 5NT

6NT

 

 

My thinking was that maybe partner thought I had five diaomnds and the 5H just accepted diamonds on a three card holding. So 5NT, pick a slam, would convey that message.

 

 

Yes, that's a lot of assuming when there has been no discussion/

 

 

Ok, now the hands.

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sk94haqjdkt42cak2&n=saj85h86daq87cj75&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2np3cp3np4dp4hp5np6nppp]266|200[/hv]

 

 

I have been in worse contracts than 6NT, but 6D is better, at least at imps, right? It was imps.

 

 

The spade finesse works, the heart finesse fails, diamonds are 3-2. That's all you need for 6D. since you can toss a club on the hearts and then ruff a club. In NT you have, with one finesse working and one failing, you are up to eleven tricks.Myabt spades are 3-3, maybe there is a club-spade squeeze, maybe a lot of things, as it happened W hat the QT of spades doubleton.

 

All in all, I think I want to be in 6D. Partner, reasonably, looked at her four triple three and figured if I was asking her opinion, her opinion was 6NT.

 

 

All comments welcome. Including the thought that I may be pushy by a point or so in driving to slam. But my biggest question is this: Given that we might, on some hands of this shape, want to find the diamond fit after a 2NT opening, how is this done?

[sfi]

What is 5NT over 3NT? If it's pick a slam, that should get you to 6D.

[kenberg]

What is 5NT over 3NT? If it's pick a slam, that should get you to 6D.

 

A good question, and I don't know the answer. This was not a regular partner, although when it comes to that I have not discussed what 5NT would be with any more regular partner either.

[Jinksy]

Isn't 'quant for 7' the norm?

 

I would take 4♦ as nat without discussion (and probably with it) anyway.

 

How do you play 3♠ over 2N? I normally play it as minor suit Stayman in recurring partnerships, though with the south hand I'd probably just bid 3N here.

[kenberg]

I also tink 2NT-3S is MSS. I think it is another thing that I have not discussed with this partner.

 

As to quant, probably. The problem is that 2NT is 20 or 21 which is a pretty narrow range. I would expect 1NT-5NT ot ask about 7, but 2NT-5NT I dunno. It seems that on most hands I would be less interested in whether someone has a stray J and more interested in pinning down a 4-4 fit.

But w/o discussion I imagine I would take it as quant.

 

Maybe after 2NT-3C-3NT then a 5NT bid should ask about the 4 (or 5?) card minor.

[MrAce]

To me 4♦ is natural but not 4 card. It shows 4M+5+ minor. Usually 6 carder.

 

 

With 4M+4m and invitation hands bid 4 NT over 3 NT, opener bids cheapest 4 card minor at 5 level and bids 5 card minor at 6 level.

With 4M+4m and slam hands bid 5 NT over 4 NT.

 

As you said yourself, it does not make much of a sense to play 5 NT as quantitative to 7 over 2 NT.

[Kaitlyn S]

To me 4♦ is natural but not 4 card. It shows 4M+5+ minor. Usually 6 carder.

 

 

With 4M+4m and invitation hands bid 4 NT over 3 NT, opener bids cheapest 4 card minor at 5 level and bids 5 card minor at 6 level.

With 4M+4m and slam hands bid 5 NT over 4 NT.

 

As you said yourself, it does not make much of a sense to play 5 NT as quantitative to 7 over 2 NT.

My most regular partner play exactly this except 5nt would be Quant for consistency. I think 5nt pick a slam is better but as seldom as partner and I play, consistent agreements are better for memory than superior agreements.

 

If I was playing with a very strong unknown partner I would assume the above agreements, assuming I thought partner had seen enough of me to think I would play these sequences "correctly".

[mike777]

I am going to give you an auction. The hand comes ater.

 

 

2NT 3C

3NT 4D

 

2NT was 20-21 balanced, 3C was Puppet, 3NT denies a four card major.

Quick, what is 4D?

 

 

I was responder, holding four spades and four diamonds. I figured since partner had no major, she has a minor, and maybe it's diamonds. Luckily, it was taken as showing diamonds. But later I was chatting about it and I realized that perhaps a person would bid this way with six hearts and four spades, using the 4D as a transfer to hearts when there is no spade fit?

 

Anyway it continued:

 

 

2NT 3C

3NT 4D

4H 5NT

6NT

 

 

My thinking was that maybe partner thought I had five diaomnds and the 5H just accepted diamonds on a three card holding. So 5NT, pick a slam, would convey that message.

 

 

Yes, that's a lot of assuming when there has been no discussion/

 

 

Ok, now the hands.

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sk94haqjdkt42cak2&n=saj85h86daq87cj75&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2np3cp3np4dp4hp5np6nppp]266|200[/hv]

 

 

I have been in worse contracts than 6NT, but 6D is better, at least at imps, right? It was imps.

 

 

The spade finesse works, the heart finesse fails, diamonds are 3-2. That's all you need for 6D. since you can toss a club on the hearts and then ruff a club. In NT you have, with one finesse working and one failing, you are up to eleven tricks.Myabt spades are 3-3, maybe there is a club-spade squeeze, maybe a lot of things, as it happened W hat the QT of spades doubleton.

 

All in all, I think I want to be in 6D. Partner, reasonably, looked at her four triple three and figured if I was asking her opinion, her opinion was 6NT.

 

 

All comments welcome. Including the thought that I may be pushy by a point or so in driving to slam. But my biggest question is this: Given that we might, on some hands of this shape, want to find the diamond fit after a 2NT opening, how is this done?

 

 

North is insane....just bid 2nt=6nt easy

 

 

at this point I can only assume north wants to torture you. :)

[sfi]

My most regular partner play exactly this except 5nt would be Quant for consistency. I think 5nt pick a slam is better but as seldom as partner and I play, consistent agreements are better for memory than superior agreements.

 

I threw out the agreement that 5NT is quantitative for 7 years ago and haven't missed it. However, 5NT for pick a slam comes up regularly and is highly useful in situations like this. Another advantage is that 4D on this auction can actually show 5+ diamonds if you don't need to invent a bid for the actual hand, and this is another gain for the agreement.

 

I don't know if any experts around these parts play it as invitational to 7, but it's certainly not the meaning I would guess without agreement anymore.

[MrAce]

North is insane....just bid 2nt=6nt easy

 

 

at this point I can only assume north wants to torture you. :)

 

North was Ken.

 

6 NT is not as good as 6♦

[kenberg]

Mike, Indeed I was N. But "Insane" is fine, with room to spare. I explicitly asked for unrestrained comment.

 

My thinking:

 

I have a 12 count, partner has a perfectly reasonable 2NT opening, 6NT is a slight stretch. My xx in hearts,worthless in NT, may/does become useful in a 4-4 fit, so looking for one seems right. At mps maybe not, although you get those extra points only if you make it.

 

Most hands belong in either NT or one of the majors, but not all of them. This is particularly true at slams where you need 12 tricks, be it NT or clubs, or anything between.

 

Anyway, finding the minor 4-4 fit seems like an under-discussed problem. MSS will get us there when only the minor is of interest, but here we also have a major to check out.

[ggwhiz]

The short answer is don't play puppet.

 

Landing in 3nt instead of 4M at mp's with a 5-3 fit has been a win overall for me. I can see the benefits of puppet at imps but this is the price you pay without a full blown discussion.

 

I find guessing with 1/2 baked agreements to actually be quite entertaining and the attempt to get to 6♦ instead of 6nt well worth the effort.

[rmnka447]

4 ♦ is a slam try in ♦. North has gone by 3 NT, so it must show ♦. If North were simply interested in a NT slam, then 6 NT or an invite of 4 NT could be used.

 

4 ♥ hearts is a control bid agreeing ♦.

 

5 NT is pick a slam, which must be a choice between 6 ♦ and 6 NT because those are the only possible strains in this auction.

 

Unless you've specifically agreed that the bidding sequence as given through 4 ♦ makes 4 ♦ a transfer, it's probably best to just treat it as natural. Keeping it simple saves straining your memory. Save the very specific bidding sequence meanings for those sequences that solve more frequent bidding problems or cover holes in your bidding system.

 

I don't see pushing for slam as being too pushy with this 12 point hand, it's a very good 12 pointer (2 1/2 QTs)

[kenberg]

The short answer is don't play puppet.

 

Landing in 3nt instead of 4M at mp's with a 5-3 fit has been a win overall for me. I can see the benefits of puppet at imps but this is the price you pay without a full blown discussion.

 

I find guessing with 1/2 baked agreements to actually be quite entertaining and the attempt to get to 6♦ instead of 6nt well worth the effort.

 

Not playing Puppet the uction would go 2NT-3C-3D. Unless we have some exotic agreement, I think I have the same problem as before. 2NT-3C-3-4D is presumably diamonds, a slam try, and we still need to sort out whether 4D was on 4 or 5 cards.

 

I often agree that conventions have hidden traps that make them less of a plus than advertised, but at least in this case I don't see that it much mattered. Or we could be playing Muppet instead of Puppet. Then the auction goes 2NT-3C-3H (denying four card major).. Same problem. Puppet seems to mostly work as advertised, but I agree with your general caution.

[kenberg]

4 ♦ is a slam try in ♦. North has gone by 3 NT, so it must show ♦. If North were simply interested in a NT slam, then 6 NT or an invite of 4 NT could be used.

 

4 ♥ hearts is a control bid agreeing ♦.

 

5 NT is pick a slam, which must be a choice between 6 ♦ and 6 NT because those are the only possible strains in this auction.

 

Unless you've specifically agreed that the bidding sequence as given through 4 ♦ makes 4 ♦ a transfer, it's probably best to just treat it as natural. Keeping it simple saves straining your memory. Save the very specific bidding sequence meanings for those sequences that solve more frequent bidding problems or cover holes in your bidding system.

 

I don't see pushing for slam as being too pushy with this 12 point hand, it's a very good 12 pointer (2 1/2 QTs)

 

I agree with this about consistency. And simplicity. These auctions that come up once in a blue moon need to be as natural as possible. It seems 4D could be diamonds and so, unless there has been explicit discussion to the contrary, and probably written down, 4D should be diamonds. But I got to worrying. In the case at hand, pard understood it to be diamonds, i understood 4H to confirm diamonds, but I was uncertain whether she was confirming three diamonds or confirming four diamonds.

 

All's well that ends well.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk94haqjdkt42cak2&n=saj85h86daq87cj75&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2np3cp3np4dp4hp5np6nppp]266|200| I agree with Ken that, without special agreement::

- 4♦ = NAT. S/T.

- 4♥ = CUE. with ♦ support.

- 5N = ART. Pick a slam. Probably implies only 4 ♦s.

- 6N = NAT. Only 3♦s. With his actual hand South should prefer 6♦.

 

With appropriate agreements, the auction might instead proceed

2N - 3♣ - 3N - 4♣ = TRF. 4+♦s. (Then opener: 4♦ = 2-3 ♦s. 4♥/4♠/4N/5♣ = Keycards with 4+ ♦s.

If opener had only 3 ♦s ....

2N - 3♣ - 3N - 4♣ - 4♦ = 2-3 ♦s (Then responder: 4♥ = 4-4 in minors. 4♠ = 5+ ♦s.. 4N = NAT).

[/hv]

[mike777]

Mike, Indeed I was N. But "Insane" is fine, with room to spare. I explicitly asked for unrestrained comment.

 

My thinking:

 

I have a 12 count, partner has a perfectly reasonable 2NT opening, 6NT is a slight stretch. My xx in hearts,worthless in NT, may/does become useful in a 4-4 fit, so looking for one seems right. At mps maybe not, although you get those extra points only if you make it.

 

Most hands belong in either NT or one of the majors, but not all of them. This is particularly true at slams where you need 12 tricks, be it NT or clubs, or anything between.

 

Anyway, finding the minor 4-4 fit seems like an under-discussed problem. MSS will get us there when only the minor is of interest, but here we also have a major to check out.

 

 

dont mind looking for the major but then I would just settle for 6nt after pard denies 4s. Now granted if you have the more complicated tools to find 6d is better but it looks like you did not have the tools and set out to torture each other. :)