ggwhiz Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 The whole point of super-accepting, IMO is to get to game on a hand where partner will not be inviting game. Agreed and with many shapely (6-4) type hands. As a sidebar an auction of 1nt - 2♦ - 2♥ - 4♥ was originally showing a mild slam try and if you had a super accept (that very few played then) you go slamming. We don't play that anymore, responder was trolling for a super accept and lost their slam ambitions when they didn't get one. Also, I've NEVER seen a 4x3 worth a super accept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaitlyn S Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 Agreed and with many shapely (6-4) type hands. As a sidebar an auction of 1nt - 2♦ - 2♥ - 4♥ was originally showing a mild slam try and if you had a super accept (that very few played then) you go slamming. We don't play that anymore, responder was trolling for a super accept and lost their slam ambitions when they didn't get one. Also, I've NEVER seen a 4x3 worth a super accept.1nt p 2h p ? KT98 AKT AKT T98 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nullve Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 1nt p 2h p ? KT98 AKT AKT T98What's your 1N range? 14-18? 13-19? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted November 25, 2016 Report Share Posted November 25, 2016 1nt p 2h p ? KT98 AKT AKT T98 Too strong for 1nt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 Too strong for 1ntJust to clarify, Kaitlyn: We were talking about 15-17 1nt opening bids -- the value of which increase to 18 when Responder transfers to our 4-card suit. With the example hand you gave, it already had a value well above 17, so we could not have that when we have opened 1nt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnu Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 Just to clarify, Kaitlyn: We were talking about 15-17 1nt opening bids -- the value of which increase to 18 when Responder transfers to our 4-card suit. With the example hand you gave, it already had a value well above 17, so we could not have that when we have opened 1nt. I upgrade a 17 HCP 1NT which could have doubleton trump support to a 17 HCP 1NT with 4 card support and break the transfer, even if 4-3-3-3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 The whole point of super-accepting, IMO is to get to game on a hand where partner will not be inviting game.Also, I've NEVER seen a 4x3 worth a super accept.Yet if your 1NT open is a 2-point range, so that there are no invitations, it is worth super-accepting on a 4333. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnu Posted November 26, 2016 Report Share Posted November 26, 2016 The whole point of super-accepting, IMO is to get to game on a hand where partner will not be inviting game. If I don't have an upgrade based on the transfer, partner will not have what is necessary for game. If partner doesn't know that you have a 9+ card trump fit, you won't be in game if partner was planning on passing the transfer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m1cha Posted November 30, 2016 Report Share Posted November 30, 2016 Rather than the above methods, I play a different transfer break. For a 9 card fit you would want to bid game on a combined 23 hcp, and responder will transfer to 3M or 4M if the total is obviously above or below, but in borderline cases I think it helps to look out for "mirrored doubletons". 5323 opposite 4234 is likely to be game, as opener can ruff a heart, but if opener has 4324 this is likely to earn a trick fewer as he has no ruffs. Whether or not you have values in the doubleton is irrelevant. Anyone else do this?Not exactly, but actually GIB has a similar concept, bidding the doubleton suit as a transfer break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m1cha Posted November 30, 2016 Report Share Posted November 30, 2016 For a 9 card fit you would want to bid game on a combined 23 hcp[...]I'd be interested to see some statistics, but it is a common opinion that you need 26hcp for an 8 card fit, with 3 hcp or 1 additional card equating to a trick, so game is 26/8, 23/9, and 23/8 makes 9 tricks etc.In my home country's official bidding system they count 2 points for the ninth card in trumps. In addition, since you have one card more in trumps, you will have one card less in another suit. This will usually translate into a distributional point for having a doubleton instead of a tripleton, or a singleton instead of a doubleton. So yes, if you don't count shortages separately, the ninth card in trumps is worth 3 points, or 1 full trick in this system. The tenth card, however, gives you only two points in total, maybe a rounding issue. I have never seen the statistical evidence behind this system but I like it and I have often felt that GIB does not attribute enough value to good fits in trumps. If you are looking for statistical evidence you may want to check this thread by tnevolin who did an extensive statistical study on hand evaluation:http://www.bridgebas...873#entry890873 particularly the link in post 68https://drive.google...mlUR2ZUblU/view and within this document on the last page the link "hand evaluation model"https://drive.google...jZJcXlfa0k/viewHere every trump card counts only 1 point (page 3) but in addition you get an increasing number of points for shortages if you hold more trump cards (page 4). Finally in the same thread, post 99 by Jogs with this graph claiming the ninth trump to 4-4 is worth half a trick in a balanced hand or a full trick in a distributional hand:http://jogsbridge.we.../554030.jpg?617 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnu Posted November 30, 2016 Report Share Posted November 30, 2016 ... I have often felt that GIB does not attribute enough value to good fits in trumps. Which is strange because GIB usually gives way to much value for misfits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted November 30, 2016 Report Share Posted November 30, 2016 Not exactly, but actually GIB has a similar concept, bidding the doubleton suit as a transfer break.Well, that's simple, but many times responder is going to bid game or otherwise regardless of what you do, so simple is very good at giving away information. Unfortunately you can't avoid it in the transfer suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m1cha Posted December 2, 2016 Report Share Posted December 2, 2016 Which is strange because GIB usually gives way to much value for misfits.I agree about the misfits; but sorry, I don't see what should be strange about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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