2/1 with reverses not showing extras

[MickyB]

Just wondering if someone could explain the benefits of reverses after a GF 2/1 not promising extras. How do you sort out when you have values for slam and when you do not?

[Echognome]

I cannot answer in general, but I will say that it makes more sense with limited opening bids. That being said, we still play that a reverse shows top end of the limit in my system.

[mike777]

Just wondering if someone could explain the benefits of reverses after a GF 2/1 not promising extras. How do you sort out when you have values for slam and when you do not?

Are you defining 1D=2C=2H....etc as a reverse? IF so, correct, does not show extra but would play that as 5-4, responder bids 3H and now one can cuebid or just rebid 4h with nothing to cue.

 

Note I play 2c=14hcp not flat 11 or 12 as many play. After opening the bidding, reversing and then cuebidding does this mean 1D may only have 10HCP, YES!.

 

Note 1D=2C=2NT=very often 11-13 and does not deny 4-4 in D and major. Note we have denied 14-16 and 18-19 bal and very often semi-balanced.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Adv.: Opener describes his shape, making it easier to find a fit,

important in finding the right game contract.

Disadv.: Transmitting the information about the Add. strength

gets more complicated, which is important in slam

auctions.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[inquiry]

If 2/1 is GAME FORCE, there is reasonable defense for a reverse not to show extra. The logic goes like this. You are already forced to game, to so there is not a need for a revers to show "game force" value opposite a bid that is already game force. It is true, that making such a reverse with a minimum hand makes it more difficult for responder to identify the slam potential of the joint partnership holding. But it also true that it helps greatly to identify the correct strain, if not the level. The concept here is distribution first, strength later. That is, it improves helping you find if you should play in a 4-3 major fit, or in game/slam in a minor, or in notrump. The problem is you have to be attuned to having described your distribution with the "reverse" to next get across your relative stregth.

 

Playing it either way (reverse does not promise extra values or reverse does promise extra values) is clearly ok. Just make sure you agree with your partner on the minimum holding you can have for such a reverse. But if 2/1 is NOT GAME FORCE, there is excellent reason to keep reverse as extra value to establish game force.

 

Ben

[paulg]

I've always seen one of the problems of 2/1 is both hands remaining unlimited for a long time during the auction. At least keeping up your requirements for a reverse gives one hand the chance to show limited values.

 

There is a bigger issue over 1♣-2♣ where there is no convenient limiting bid (and you would like to find major fits below the 4-level). So we do not require extra values for a reverse (but it does guarantee a 2-suiter with clubs) but have some relays later for strength.

 

paul

[awm]

One of the big advantages of 2/1 with reverses not showing extras, is that the auction:

 

1♠-2♦-2♠

 

actually shows six spades. This makes it much easier to find 6-2 major fits (which frequently play a trick or two better than 3NT), and to distinguish between a 6-3 and 5-3 fit on slam auctions. If reverses show extras, then the 2♠ rebid becomes something of a catch-all with minimum values. Say the auction continues:

 

1♠-2♦-2♠-3♣

 

What is opener's priority? Show a partial fit for diamonds? Bid 3NT with a stopper in hearts? Rebid a good six card spade suit? It seems that you don't have enough space to show/deny all of these things.

 

Of course, there are some disadvantages in that it can be hard to determine whether opener has extras, which can be awkward on some slam going hands. But there are various solutions too, such as serious 3NT and using the 4th suit as an asking bid.

[luis]

One of the big advantages of 2/1 with reverses not showing extras, is that the auction:

 

1♠-2♦-2♠

 

actually shows six spades. This makes it much easier to find 6-2 major fits (which frequently play a trick or two better than 3NT), and to distinguish between a 6-3 and 5-3 fit on slam auctions. If reverses show extras, then the 2♠ rebid becomes something of a catch-all with minimum values. Say the auction continues:

 

1♠-2♦-2♠-3♣

 

What is opener's priority? Show a partial fit for diamonds? Bid 3NT with a stopper in hearts? Rebid a good six card spade suit? It seems that you don't have enough space to show/deny all of these things.

 

Of course, there are some disadvantages in that it can be hard to determine whether opener has extras, which can be awkward on some slam going hands. But there are various solutions too, such as serious 3NT and using the 4th suit as an asking bid.

Disagree completely, 1♠-2♦-2♠ doesn't show 6 spades. Unless you are going to bid 3d with 3 bad cards or 2NT without stoppers in hearts and clubs. The rebid of opener's major in modern 2/1 is used to deny other bids, not to show 6 spades. Responder can usually sort out if pd does have 6 spades or not in the next bids but in principle 2♠ is just (I can't bid 2♥ or 2NT, or 3♣ or 3♦)

 

I also disagree that 6-2 fits play a trick or better than 3NT, that's like saying that hammers are usually better than screwdrivers to prepare milkshakes....

 

2/1 is better than SAYC I agree but is also a very flawed system, I'm still looking for somebody that can solve the famous "endplayed in the bidding" 2/1 auction 1♠-2♦-3♦. Now responder can be lacking a stopper in clubs or hearts or have both or have 3 cards in spades or 2 and he has only 3 bids before 3NT so mathematically there's one bid that is ambiguous and forces opener to take a nasty guess. If 3♠ is for example 3 spades and 3NT shows stoppers in hearts and clubs then what is 3♥ ? :-)

[han]

Hi Luis,

 

I enjoyed reading your post, and I agree with your comments.

 

Regarding your question, I believe that Meckwell always plays 3C as a raise over 1X-2Y. Then responder can ask for shortness by bidding 3D (the extra step comes in handy here).

 

I like to play the following over 1S-2D:

 

2H: natural. (usually denies exciting distribution)

2S: catch all.

2NT: 6+ spades, sound hand.

3C: 4+ diamonds, sound hand. (3D asks for stiff)

3D: at least 5-5 in spades and clubs, sound hand.

3H: at least 5-5 in spades and hearts, extras.

 

We play the same ideas over any 2/1 auction (rebid always catch-all, higher bids show sound hands, 2NT shows extra length).

[mike777]

One of the big advantages of 2/1 with reverses not showing extras, is that the auction:

 

1♠-2♦-2♠

 

actually shows six spades. This makes it much easier to find 6-2 major fits (which frequently play a trick or two better than 3NT), and to distinguish between a 6-3 and 5-3 fit on slam auctions. If reverses show extras, then the 2♠ rebid becomes something of a catch-all with minimum values. Say the auction continues:

 

1♠-2♦-2♠-3♣

 

What is opener's priority? Show a partial fit for diamonds? Bid 3NT with a stopper in hearts? Rebid a good six card spade suit? It seems that you don't have enough space to show/deny all of these things.

 

Of course, there are some disadvantages in that it can be hard to determine whether opener has extras, which can be awkward on some slam going hands. But there are various solutions too, such as serious 3NT and using the 4th suit as an asking bid.

Disagree completely, 1♠-2♦-2♠ doesn't show 6 spades. Unless you are going to bid 3d with 3 bad cards or 2NT without stoppers in hearts and clubs. The rebid of opener's major in modern 2/1 is used to deny other bids, not to show 6 spades. Responder can usually sort out if pd does have 6 spades or not in the next bids but in principle 2♠ is just (I can't bid 2♥ or 2NT, or 3♣ or 3♦)

 

I also disagree that 6-2 fits play a trick or better than 3NT, that's like saying that hammers are usually better than screwdrivers to prepare milkshakes....

 

2/1 is better than SAYC I agree but is also a very flawed system, I'm still looking for somebody that can solve the famous "endplayed in the bidding" 2/1 auction 1♠-2♦-3♦. Now responder can be lacking a stopper in clubs or hearts or have both or have 3 cards in spades or 2 and he has only 3 bids before 3NT so mathematically there's one bid that is ambiguous and forces opener to take a nasty guess. If 3♠ is for example 3 spades and 3NT shows stoppers in hearts and clubs then what is 3♥ ? :-)

Strongly agree what you describe is what is taught and played by most and I hate it. Bid shape!

 

1) Yes, have 2s almost always promise 6 spades. With 11-13 and 5332 either rebid 2nt or bid 3D if you have great 3D's with junky H and C. BTW, yes I have reached 4-3 D slam while many play 3nt with this rebid.

Rebid 2s with 5 solid S.

2) Agree 2/1 has serious flaws regarding "level vs fit"

3) 1S=2d=3d=3h=... 3H in your example is 3nt try showing H stopper or advance cue bid if p rebids over 3nt.

[whereagles]

One of the greatest problems of 2/1 GF is the misconception it naturally instills on players that you can just bid out shape and forget about points. This is bad strategy and will lead to poor results on the long run.

 

1S 2D

3C = this must show extras, otherwise responder cannot properly evaluate the combined potential.

 

Without extras you bid it like this

 

1S 2D

2S 2NT

3C

 

now responder can evaluate slam chances precisely.

[luke warm]

i went thru this with a partner a few years back, and we decided to rebid 2nt in this situation with 5332 hands in a range unsuitable for 1nt opening... worked just fine, because 2M always showed 6+... our thinking was, it's a gf anyway

[mike777]

One of the greatest problems of 2/1 GF is the misconception it naturally instills on players that you can just bid out shape and forget about points. This is bad strategy and will lead to poor results on the long run.

 

1S 2D

3C = this must show extras, otherwise responder cannot properly evaluate the combined potential.

 

Without extras you bid it like this

 

1S 2D

2S 2NT

3C

 

now responder can evaluate slam chances precisely.

As I said very often, strongly disagree with this viewpoint. Neither method solves the main problem of 2/1 which is level vs strain but showing shape where your HCP's are helps.

 

In your example hand: 1s=2d=3c

 

As responder just bid your hand. You have already shown 14HCP and 5D, just bid your hand and let opener take over if they have extra. Opener has told us they S and C and hcp in those suits. Can opener have 10HCP, yes.

[han]

This topic has been discussed by many of the worlds leading experts. I believe that most of them came to the following conclusions:

 

1) New suits above 2M should show extras. (especially at the 3-level)

 

2) 2M is preferable to 2NT as a catch-all.

 

And also:

 

3) A raise of a minor shows more than just any 3-card support.

 

This doesn't mean that the views of Mike777 are unplayable of course, but I think that Bergen, Lawrence etc. don't recommend it.

[whereagles]

One of the greatest problems of 2/1 GF is the misconception it naturally instills on players that you can just bid out shape and forget about points. This is bad strategy and will lead to poor results on the long run.

As I said very often, strongly disagree with this viewpoint. Neither method solves the main problem of 2/1 which is level vs strain but showing shape where your HCP's are helps.

Fine. Play it your way and see how far you can get.

[david_c]

Trying to answer the original question - one advantage of playing reverses which do not promise extras is that opener can show which major suits he has immediately. For example after 1♥:2m you'd like to be able to show a spade suit if you have it. So how do you know whether you have values for slam or not? Well, it's difficult :) but if you know how to do it after 1♠:2♦,2♥ you ought to be able to do it after 1♥:2♦,2♠ as well!

 

For reverses at the 3-level, you're always showing a minor suit, and you're taking up more space; you're also fairly likely to be able to show your suit cheaply later if you start by rebidding your first suit, so here there is much more reason to require extra strength for the bid.

 

Part of the problem is trying to play natural 2/1 methods. In a game-forcing auction there's no particular reason to use natural bidding (the advantage of natural bids in general is that you can pass them) except for memory problems. For example: if you're happy playing that 1♠:2♦,2♥ is natural and 1♠:2♦,2♠ is catchall, then why not play 1♥:2♦,2♥ as showing spades, and 1♥:2♦,2♠ as catchall? Similarly if you do use 2M as a catchall bid, it's worth playing 2NT as showing a single-suiter (as suggested in "the other place" recently). And as for auctions beginning 1M:2♣, don't get me started ...

[luke warm]

Fine. Play it your way and see how far you can get.

post 2 or 3 hands and let's see... as responder, your partner opens 1h and you bid 2c with a 3235 13 count... now he bids 2h with a 3613 11 count... your bid... change his hand to a 3532 12 count... he again bids 2h... your bid...

 

would you like to know whether or not he has 5 or 6 spades, given this is a game force auction? if so, how can you tell?

[whereagles]

Posting hands to prove a point is suspicious. They'll always be fixed on way or the other.

[luke warm]

i disagree... notice i don't want to post my hands, i want you to post your hands... it's true that a person can post any hand to fit any philosophy, but i'd still like to know how you'd bid on the examples i gave, neither of which is in the least unusual

[han]

Jimmy, the advantages of it promisign extras are clear. Any time the auction goes 1H-2D-3C and this shows extra values you have given more information, and partner may be better able to make the right desicion.

 

Similarly, any time the auction goes 1H-2D-3D and this shows 4+ support and extra values (may it be distributional) responder has a better chance to make the right decision.

 

Any time the auction goes 1H-2D-2NT and this shows real stoppers in the unbid suits you are ahead. Now 3C by responder is not merely looking for stoppers, but is an honest bid.

 

The disadvantages are also clear. It is true that the catch all bid may make the auction less clear. The good news is that you are still at a low level and that you may be able to sort it out.

[jdulmage]

Just wondering if someone could explain the benefits of reverses after a GF 2/1 not promising extras. How do you sort out when you have values for slam and when you do not?

It's GAME FORCING, therefore you can use other means to find a slam, such as

 

1♦-2♣-2♥-2♠ (Fourth Suit Forcing) and then start cuebidding over that. Even bidding slower allows you to determine if you have slam versus a quick arrival.

[the hog]

Just wondering if someone could explain the benefits of reverses after a GF 2/1 not promising extras. How do you sort out when you have values for slam and when you do not?

It's GAME FORCING, therefore you can use other means to find a slam, such as

 

1♦-2♣-2♥-2♠ (Fourth Suit Forcing) and then start cuebidding over that. Even bidding slower allows you to determine if you have slam versus a quick arrival.

Having to go via 4th suit forcing in strong auctions when you may or may not have support for partner is one reason to ensure that reverses DO show extra values. It is convoluted bidding, as at described above, that gives 2/1 gf a bad name.

[whereagles]

i disagree... notice i don't want to post my hands, i want you to post your hands... it's true that a person can post any hand to fit any philosophy, but i'd still like to know how you'd bid on the examples i gave, neither of which is in the least unusual

Well, I'm not going to post any hand. But if you want to volunteer some, I might tell you how I would bid them.

[luke warm]

i did, more or less... here's what i asked:

 

"your partner opens 1h and you bid 2c with a 3235 13 count... now he bids 2h with a 3613 11 count... your bid... change his hand to a 3532 12 count... he again bids 2h... your bid... "

[han]

With 3235 shape I rebid 2NT. This is usually a balanced hand, so I don't see the problem. Partner will bid 3NT with the 5332 hand, and probably not with the 6322 shape.