ATB

[eagles123]

[hv=pc=n&s=S972H543D6CAKT942&wn=diana_eva&w=SJT865HJ96DT852C5&nn=sillafu&n=SKQ4HK7DQ74CQJ876&en=eagles123&e=SA3HAQT82DAKJ93C3&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=PP1C2N(hearts%20and%20diamonds)3DP3ND4CPPP&p=DAD6D2D4D3C9D5D7CAC5C6C3C2D8C8H2DQDKCTDTS2S8SKSAS3S7STSQCQH8CKS5S9SJS4D9H6HKHAH3HQH4H9H7HT&c=8]399|300[/hv]

 

Thanks

Eagles

[Kaitlyn S]

[hv=pc=n&s=S972H543D6CAKT942&wn=diana_eva&w=SJT865HJ96DT852C5&nn=sillafu&n=SKQ4HK7DQ74CQJ876&en=eagles123&e=SA3HAQT82DAKJ93C3&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=PP1C2N(hearts%20and%20diamonds)3DP3ND4CPPP&p=DAD6D2D4D3C9D5D7CAC5C6C3C2D8C8H2DQDKCTDTS2S8SKSAS3S7STSQCQH8CKS5S9SJS4D9H6HKHAH3HQH4H9H7HT&c=8]399|300[/hv]

 

Thanks

Eagles

I would say it depends on how strongly your double of 3NT says it's your hand. If your double says that "I don't care that South cuebid to show strength, I still think this is very likely to be our hand" then you've shown your hand and West has a call based on the double fit. If double says "it could be our hand" or even "it's probably not our hand but I think I can beat 3NT because I'm on lead, or at least if they're going to try 3NT they're not taking a shot undoubled" then I think you can bid one more time. The actual scenario isn't unlikely; South pulled 3NT and North passed, it sounds like South is "just clubs."

 

Without agreement, I would double again. You have a four-loser hand and the auction makes it unlikely that you're going to find the disastrous misfit. West has a 4H call and North's 3NT bid suggests the play of forcing a heart entry to hand and finessing against the ♦Q.

[Jinksy]

I think double of 3N meant 'I've got enough strength to beat 3N'. IMO E has plenty to muster a second double.

[Kaitlyn S]

I think double of 3N meant 'I've got enough strength to beat 3N'. IMO E has plenty to muster a second double.

I'd like to think that with any decent pickup partner, double at least meant that East had enough strength to beat 3NT AND either enough strength to beat five clubs or have a decent shot at his own five-level contract in West's best red suit.

 

In a regular partnership, I'd like for East's double to express some opinion on the ownership of the hand.

 

Clearly, the OP's bidding states that he thinks that his double showed very strong feelings about the ownership of the hand, and posted the problem to find out whether he was justified in feeling that way.

[Fluffy]

2NT+ double shows a monster, and diana has double fit, so she should move on. It is true that double of 3NT might be a bit different but she is certainly worth a bid.

[ggwhiz]

Given the strength showing nature of the 3♦ bid I would bid 4♦ directly over it and if we were white it would be a fast 5 of them. East (who may be 6-5) should be able to judge pretty well no matter what they hold.

[rmnka447]

Certainly, vulnerable, no one's likely to use an "unusual NT" bid without pretty decent holdings in the long suits. The double of 3 NT should show a very strong hand.

 

West knows there's a double fit. A quick LOTT analysis indicates there are likely at least 19 trump between the 2 hands. So, if a bid at the 4 level is made, the likely result is either making or down 1. With fitting honors and intermediates in both of East's suits, it favors making a 4 level bid.

[eagles123]

I should have said in the OP when Diana and I were discussing this board afterwards we both thought that ourself was the one to blame on the board and agreed it was a good hand to post on here, so this isn't some kinda point scoring mission.

[wank]

west has a great hand once east shows a strong hand. still, east has plenty of aces so could have safely doubled again in the expectation of getting a penalty (if west doesn't have red cards, it seems rather far-fetched to think 4C is making).

[helene_t]

I think West is a slightly better position to do something about it than East is.

[Jinksy]

I'd like to think that with any decent pickup partner, double at least meant that East had enough strength to beat 3NT AND either enough strength to beat five clubs or have a decent shot at his own five-level contract in West's best red suit.

 

In a regular partnership, I'd like for East's double to express some opinion on the ownership of the hand.

 

Clearly, the OP's bidding states that he thinks that his double showed very strong feelings about the ownership of the hand, and posted the problem to find out whether he was justified in feeling that way.

 

Clarifying my thought, E's X for me would be 'we're beating 3N and I'm confident we can do something if they run'. Which might be another way of saying what you're saying - but it should surely set up a forcing pass. That makes W's failure to bid 4♥ dubious, but E's failure to X again more so.

[Jinksy]

I'd like to think that with any decent pickup partner, double at least meant that East had enough strength to beat 3NT AND either enough strength to beat five clubs or have a decent shot at his own five-level contract in West's best red suit.

 

In a regular partnership, I'd like for East's double to express some opinion on the ownership of the hand.

 

Clearly, the OP's bidding states that he thinks that his double showed very strong feelings about the ownership of the hand, and posted the problem to find out whether he was justified in feeling that way.

 

Clarifying my thought, E's X for me would be 'we're beating 3N and I'm confident we can do something if they run'. Which might be another way of saying what you're saying - but it should surely set up a forcing pass, or very strongly indicate another action. That makes W's failure to bid 4♥ dubious, but E's failure to X again more so.

[cherdano]

I think double by East is just descriptive, showing a very strong 2NT overcall. It mostly says "we probably make 4H if you have a decent fit, and perhaps 5D if you have a good fit and one useful card". Getting a penalty against a freely bid 3NT is a secondary concern when you are 5-5.

 

This makes bidding with West even clearer, even if you think double doesn't show quite as much. (West's hand would be even stronger if East had a doubleton in clubs instead of spades.)

[MrAce]

What Arend said.

[neilkaz]

I strongly feel that both players are at fault for selling out to 4♣ with these hands on this auction.

[WesleyC]

Agree with Neil that both players could've done more but I think the majority of the blame has to go to East for passing out 4C holding an amazingly strong hand.

[cherdano]

To those who think East has to do more:

- What do you think is a minimum vulnerable 2N overcall?

- What is a minimum for 2N followed by double?

[WesleyC]

To those who think East has to do more:

- What do you think is a minimum vulnerable 2N overcall?

- What is a minimum for 2N followed by double?

 

Obviously the initial 2NT bid is dependent more on shape/texture than on high cards. With 6-5 shape and decent texture, I would overcall quite aggressively - [ x KQJxx QJTxxx x] would be typical.

 

The double of 3NT shows extras, but again I might stretch to act holding more shape. For example [Kx ATxxx KQJxxx --] or [--- AKJxx AQT9xx xx] would both be worth a double of 3NT.

On the basis of this, I think West, holding short clubs and a double fit, should probably stretch to act directly over 4C.

 

So now in the passout seat, East still has significant extra values. Opposite [xxxxx xx Qxx xxx] or [xxxx xx xxxx xx] 4D will play okay, and if partner has a defensive hand like [xxxxx xx xx Jxxx] or [xxxxx xxx xx Qxx] then 4C is going to run into some serious management problems. Even if we aren't cashing 4 tricks off the top, +200/500 feels most likely.

[mike777]

[hv=pc=n&s=S972H543D6CAKT942&wn=diana_eva&w=SJT865HJ96DT852C5&nn=sillafu&n=SKQ4HK7DQ74CQJ876&en=eagles123&e=SA3HAQT82DAKJ93C3&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=PP1C2N(hearts%20and%20diamonds)3DP3ND4CPPP&p=DAD6D2D4D3C9D5D7CAC5C6C3C2D8C8H2DQDKCTDTS2S8SKSAS3S7STSQCQH8CKS5S9SJS4D9H6HKHAH3HQH4H9H7HT&c=8]399|300[/hv]

 

Thanks

Eagles

 

 

given the alert 2nt is nonsense.

 

my guess is you are not telling us the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 

 

based on my life in bridge a common, very common issue when plying against "experts"

 

 

eagle you do not tell the truth the whole truth.....

Edited December 5, 2016 by diana_eva
removed personal attack

[mike777]

ty diana

[diana_eva]

ty diana

 

He is telling the truth, I was his partner on this deal.

[Jinksy]

I think double by East is just descriptive, showing a very strong 2NT overcall. It mostly says "we probably make 4H if you have a decent fit, and perhaps 5D if you have a good fit and one useful card". Getting a penalty against a freely bid 3NT is a secondary concern when you are 5-5.

 

This makes bidding with West even clearer, even if you think double doesn't show quite as much. (West's hand would be even stronger if East had a doubleton in clubs instead of spades.)

 

But it also makes me think that West's pass should be forcing - presumably with some interest in doubling 4 clubs, rather than bidding on. Which doesn't make passing on West's actual cards any more convincing, but doesn't exonerate East either.

[wank]

To those who think East has to do more:

- What do you think is a minimum vulnerable 2N overcall?

- What is a minimum for 2N followed by double?

 

as i've said a few times in these types of auctions, one can have a hand of similar playing strength which has much less defensive strength. i'd rather have a suit like aqtxx on defence than kqjt9, especially as here where you've over the stronger hand.

[eagles123]

given the alert 2nt is nonsense.

 

my guess is you are not telling us the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 

 

based on my life in bridge a common, very common issue when plying against "experts"

 

 

eagle you do not tell the truth the whole truth.....

 

 

wtf are you banging on about here?