What Would You Do

[eagles123]

On monday evening at the club I encountered this auction (I was East)

 

All bids were made in tempo but I did find myself wondering how on earth North could know that his partner had a weak no trump

[hv=pc=n&s=sqj63ha653daq8ct4&w=s9754hkt87d54ck32&n=sat8hj42dj72ca876&e=sk2hq9dkt963cqj95&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1ddp2cp2nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

As it happens the declarer didn't play it particularly well and they went 1 off for an 80% board for us when most people didn't open my hand - but the auction did make me suspicious.

 

I didn't say anything to either NS (a husband/wife partnership) or to a director/club staff but I was wondering if I should have done. This is a very relaxed club evening of mixed standard (from life time beginners to strong advanced players and this NS tend to come top half).

 

Maybe I'm just being crazy and the 2n bid here actually shows a weak NT but it's not something i've ever heard of before - and asking them for a convention card is a bit pointless as no one bothers with them at this place (including me and my partner). Even asking them for the meaning of the south sequence seems a bit pointless because if there is some kind of signal being sent - and i have absolutely no evidence to suggest there was - then north can just describe the south hand as shown by the signal if you see what i mean.

[Mkgnao]

I guess it's more likely your opponents are clueless than cheating. Bidding 2NT (to 'rescue' partner) and passing 2NT (having no idea of NT-ranges in competition) are typical examples of bidding at a low level.

[StevenG]

I think you need to know whether their double is an orthodox distributional takeout double, or merely any 12+ count. (Having both majors might just be a coincidence.)

[barmar]

If these were life novices I wouldn't do anything -- they don't know what they're doing, and don't know what bids are supposed to show extra strength. Next time South will have extra strength and they'll miss their game.

 

But you said these were in the more advanced category. They should know that this sequence shows a hand too strong to make a NT overcall. In ACBL, I think this agreement would be alertable, under the general rule about "weak bids that sound strong or vice versa". The closest I could find in the EBU Blue book is 4B2:

Doubles are also alertable if they convey a potentially unexpected meaning in addition to takeout

or penalties (see 3H2 and 3H3).

 

So what is a potentially unexpected meaning? 3H3 says this about takeout doubles:

Take-out doubles are frequently based on shortage in the suit doubled and

preparedness to play in the other unbid suits, failing which significant extra values may be

expected.

 

It does have this (3D2):

If a partnership agrees to make take-out doubles of suit bids on almost all hands with opening

bid values (not just on hands that are short in the opponent’s suit or have substantial extra

values), this should be disclosed on the system card.

That seems to describe this doubling style. Do they have something on their system card that says they make doubles like this? Do they have a system card?

[billw55]

Looks like typical low level bidding to me. Definitely no action on this at a club. Probably not at a tournament either if I got 80%.

 

Do not attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

[barmar]

Looks like typical low level bidding to me. Definitely no action on this at a club. Probably not at a tournament either if I got 80%.

That's what I would have assumed just based on the bidding -- I know lots of low level players who would do this. But the OP said "NS tend to come top half".

 

Note that nothing needs to be done about this particular board, since the opponents weren't damaged. But the players should be informed of their alerting responsibilities, because if they persist like this it could damage players in the future.

[eagles123]

That's what I would have assumed just based on the bidding -- I know lots of low level players who would do this. But the OP said "NS tend to come top half".

 

Note that nothing needs to be done about this particular board, since the opponents weren't damaged. But the players should be informed of their alerting responsibilities, because if they persist like this it could damage players in the future.

 

 

I don't want to exaggerate it, they are not great players, but they're not beginners either.

[Kaitlyn S]

Next time South will have extra strength and they'll miss their game.

No they won't, they'll jump to 3NT with extras! :D

[mcphee]

The auction IMO is not at all uncommon for weak players. Bottom line here is, this game is a more social time than a no holds barred spingold final 4. Move on.

[Zelandakh]

Incidentally, this is how I played when I first learnt the game. With a better (19+) hand you bid 2♦ the second time around followed by 2NT.

 

It is not quite sound as an approach but it is also not as bad as many would have you believe. It is quite possible that they have little idea that this is even unusual. At some point someone, ideally a TD, should mention to them that an alert would be appropriate.

 

For you, the thing to note is that competitive agreements are often quite different at the club level and not to assume much at all. Asking about the range of the 2NT call before the lead would not have been inappropriate. Not asking about it after seeing Dummy strikes me as self-harm.

[billw55]

No they won't, they'll jump to 3NT with extras! :D

and perhaps go -800 when partner has nothing. There is justice out there somewhere.

[ggwhiz]

I would ask about their system and suggest that the 2nt bid MIGHT be alertable, say I'm not sure and say they might want to ask the Directors opinion.

[euclidz]

On monday evening at the club I encountered this auction (I was East)

 

I didn't say anything to either NS (a husband/wife partnership) or to a director/club staff but I was wondering if I should have done. This is a very relaxed club evening of mixed standard (from life time beginners to strong advanced players and this NS tend to come top half).

 

Maybe I'm just being crazy and the 2n bid here actually shows a weak NT but it's not something i've ever heard of before - and asking them for a convention card is a bit pointless as no one bothers with them at this place (including me and my partner). Even asking them for the meaning of the south sequence seems a bit pointless because if there is some kind of signal being sent - and i have absolutely no evidence to suggest there was - then north can just describe the south hand as shown by the signal if you see what i mean.

 

I have played Bridge at club level in the UK every week for the past 10 years and I can see nothing wrong, unusual or out of order with N/S's bidding. It's been described in this thread as 'weak' or 'poor' - I would much appreciate knowing how the Expert would do with South's hand? He/she has an opening hand and no 5 card suit, yes the Dble should promise a shortage in D's but what's the alternative - what is a better alternative? And yes, after the dbl, N bids the suit where there is a shortage so South bids NT showing no fear of thee Diamonds. In my experience all that is absolutely run of the mill everyday average (and not bad) Club bidding.

[euclidz]

Thinking about it further . . . why Did South re-bid 2NT and why did North pass that bid? South chose not overcall INT over the 1D because that would show 16hcp. South's dbl forces North to bid so South knows North's 1♣ response shows a point range of between 0 and 15. South bids 2NT offering North the choice of 3NT. North knows South has less than 16hcp (because South did not overcall 1NT) so North passes. How bad / wrong / poor / weak is that?

[Kaitlyn S]

I have played Bridge at club level in the UK every week for the past 10 years and I can see nothing wrong, unusual or out of order with N/S's bidding.

In standard bridge, when you make a takeout double, you show at least 3 card support for each unbid suit, and if you have a minimum opener, you intend to pass partner's minimum advance (advancer should jump or cuebid with most 10 point hands.)

 

When you break your promise to go along with partner's choice of trump, you are showing a hand too good to overcall. Since South broke the promise by bidding notrump, he is too strong to have overcalled 1NT. He is showing about 19-21 points with a diamond stopper; and probably a balanced hand.

 

I hope Reiner weighs in on this problem because his philosophy is to ignore the other minor and I am really curious how he would bid these 2 hands as N-S. My initial impression is that this hand is really an unlucky problem case for his methods.

 

In any event, I would pass the South hand since I don't have a five-card suit to bid, and I don't have the proper shape for a takeout double (I only have 2 clubs.)

 

Some experts would ignore the clubs and double, playing the odds that partner has a major. In this case they would pay off, as North is on the borderline between a 3C call, and downgrading the 4-3-3-3 shape and the ♦J and bidding 2C. If your style is to double with a minimum and a doubleton in the other minor, holding back a bit and bidding 2C is probably right. With my partners that promise 3 clubs, I would have no issues bidding 3C; the 4-3-3-3 is bad but the two aces are good. After all, if South a normal non-minimum double such as KQxx, KQxx, x, KQxx, where do you want to play? This hand should probably pass a 2C advance.

 

After North bids 2C, South shows 19 points if he bids anything so South hopes North has five clubs and passes. An inelegant contract but that is the price one pays when taking a chance on finding a major and losing the gamble.

 

What happens after South passes? The auction continues with West bidding 1H and East bidding 2C. N-S end up defending against 2C instead of playing it.

 

Actually, if N-S systemically double 1D with short clubs and a minimum, North might not bid 2C; North might decide to try 1NT without a diamond stopper which works insanely well on this hand. South happily passes. Come to think of it, 1D Double Pass 1NT (or even 1D Double 1H 1NT with both suits unstopped!!) seems reasonable. At first glance it appears that seven tricks is the limit if East leads a club, but +120 if East leads one of his side's bid suits. (GIB says I'm wrong - N-S can make 8 tricks in NT so maybe East gets endplayed.) So maybe this isn't such an unlucky hand for Reiner's methods after all and his philosophy of doubling without support for the other minor has more merit that I give it credit for.

 

In short; depending on partnership agreement:

 

either South passes over 1D, or South doubles 1D, North bids 1NT (regardless of whether West bids hearts or not), and South passes. If South has a tendency to be short in clubs when doubling 1D, then North can't bid clubs. If South doesn't have that tendency, then he can't double.

 

As for seeing nothing wrong with the N-S bidding: wouldn't North bid 2C on a 4-count? If that's the case, South bids 2NT, West, who was sitting in the weeds with a 9-count doubles, and N-S discover what was wrong with their bidding.

[wank]

I have played Bridge at club level in the UK every week for the past 10 years and I can see nothing wrong, unusual or out of order with N/S's bidding. It's been described in this thread as 'weak' or 'poor' - I would much appreciate knowing how the Expert would do with South's hand? He/she has an opening hand and no 5 card suit, yes the Dble should promise a shortage in D's but what's the alternative - what is a better alternative? And yes, after the dbl, N bids the suit where there is a shortage so South bids NT showing no fear of thee Diamonds. In my experience all that is absolutely run of the mill everyday average (and not bad) Club bidding.

 

if south wants to double, which is not ideal, but yes, would still be the preferred option for expert players, he has to be prepared to pass 2C and hope for the best. north almost always 5 cards for 2C here, so it's not a big problem. south's poor bid was 2NT which should show a hand too strong to overcall 1NT directly, i.e. something like 19-21. north hasn't shown any values, so as it was, south de facto jump overcalled in NT on a 13 count. It's obviously stupid to jump overcall constructively on a hand weaker than a simple overcall.

 

what north should do is interesting, but probably a little more advanced.

 

the standard of bidding in english clubs is very low. other countries do more to promulgate a useful standard system which helps.

[euclidz]

When you break your promise to go along with partner's choice of trump, you are showing a hand too good to overcall. Since South broke the promise by bidding notrump, he is too strong to have overcalled 1NT. He is showing about 19-21 points with a diamond stopper; and probably a balanced hand.

 

I live and learn .. ty

[Kaitlyn S]

I live and learn .. ty

Your question inspired my next problem set for I/N players.

 

Bidding Problems for I/N players Part 14