Penalty or Takeout

[Echognome]

This auction occurred at a recent inter-university match in the UK and was followed by some discussion by which my regular partner and I vehemently disagreed. We were kibitzing at the time.

 

1♦ - (P) - 1♥ - (P)

2♣ - (2♠) - X - (P)

 

Is the double penalties or some for of takeout or cooperative double or have some other meaning?

 

I have my opinions, but will wait for others to chime in first.

 

Thanks,

Matt

[P_Marlowe]

Penalty.

 

You could weaken this a bit, declaring the double

as optional, but the double by responder strongly

suggest to play 2Sx.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[shoeless]

Blood! Seems to me the best takeout option here is to bid something, so I think the message is quite clear. Pard can do what he/she wants based on the info provided.

[the hog]

This double is penalties of a totally stupid 2S bid. How can this hand pass and then come in when the opps have bid 3 suits and not yet found a fit?

[Finch]

Penalties.

In general, I play that after opener has rebid subsequent doubles are penalties. The idea is that opener has defined his hand (in this case a minimum with diamonds and clubs) so there is no need for responder to ask for more information.

[Walddk]

I know that penalty doubles hardly exist any more (maybe a double of 7NT is, but only maybe), but if this double is not for penalties, I give up. If I have support for diamonds or clubs, I support, if I have long hearts I will rebid them, so what else can double be but penalties?

 

On a scale from 1-10:

 

Penalties: 10 points

 

Anything else: minus 100 points.

 

Roland

[whereagles]

If one plays "dbl = take-out until fit is found", then this might very well show a 3-5-2-3 shape with 10+ points. Otherwise it's penalties.

[mr1303]

I would say penalties, but only holding at most 4 cards. I guess opener with a 6-5 or something similar would be in a position to pull. 1354 hands (for opener) should sit for it without any problems.

[Echognome]

I am with all of you on this! I said absolutely penalties. My partner thought it showed a 10+ hand without clear direction (something along the lines of what Whereagles alluded to). It goes under my rules of "Whenever three suits have been bid naturally, double is for penalty." Also, responder could easily be sitting with 4+ spades. We aren't in a fit auction... etc. etc.

[Free]

Penalty! ;)

[gusakov99]

I though about the following simple rule to understand whether X is penalty or negative/takeout:

 

Add the number of bids made by your partner and the level of the opps bid. If you get 4 or more, your X is for pentaly, if less, then negative/takeout.

Exceptions are X over natural NT (always penalty) and after p has made natural NT bid (also always penalty).

 

Some examples:

 

1H - (2D) - X neg

 

3S - (X) takeout

 

1H - P - 2C -P

2D -(2S)-X penalty

 

4S - X penalty

 

Does it make sense? Or is there too many cases when it will work in a wrong (undesired) way?

[pclayton]

Penalty.

 

They've stepped into our potential misfit auction and I'm unlimited.

[HeartA]

penalty.

[Guest Jlall]

also think pen

[luis]

I don't think we have asked the right question... 'who bid 2s?'

 

With my current pd we have two "sets" of doubles, one we use in weak or club fields and one we use in strong fields.

In set-A (normal) we play this dbl as penalty for the reasons that most posters describe, if they are nuts so it be and we collect our money.

In set-B (strong) we play no penalty doubles at all based on the assumption that our opponents don't bid a new suit at the 2 level to go for 800 and having freed all doubles let us compete better.

 

I think this can't happen in a strong field because the 2s bid doesn't make any sense but if it does then I assume the player who bid 2s WANTs to be doubled in 2s so we won't play dbl as penalty. A dbl would then be "general values".

[keylime]

With me, this is penalty showing 4-5-x-x in majors and a rock. Gimme the money.

[Fluffy]

If I have support for diamonds or clubs, I support, if I have long hearts I will rebid them, so what else can double be but penalties?

what about 2 or 3 of them?

 

I base some of these decisions on my holding, but that would be silly this time, the 2♠ bidder is having either 4 or 8 cards probably ;). I really ahve my doubts here.