what goes wrong on this auction

[yaohung]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakjhakq65dkj53ck&n=sq642ht972d7caq75&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2cp2dp2hp4dp4hppp]266|200|2D is positive response(one K at least) which deny good 5+card suit (2 of AKQ), 4D splinter[/hv]

 

a) Any opinion about what went wrong on this auction?

b) Your minimum value for the 4D splinter call? Is 3 card support acceptable?

c) Please suggest a reasonable auction to reach the proper contract.

[alok c]

4♦ splinter is super accept( 4+ carder)& partner is showing slam interest( otherwise he would bid 4H),you are missing 2As;any A in North's hand will propel you to slam.4nt asking is required from South's instead of 4♥.

[Zelandakh]

Both players underbid. The North hand is too good for splinter followed by pass. To get the most out of splinters they need to have a defined range. This hand should be well above the maximum for a normal splinter so it is incumbent on North to make an additional move over 4♥. South is also too good to sign off over 4♥ despite already having shown most of their values. The North hand could be considerably worse and slam would still be reasonable. For me the bigger error is from North but there is plenty to go around for both players on this one.

 

(Edit) PS: this is not really remotely close to an expert level problem and should probably be moved.

[MrAce]

Anyone who thinks S is at fault needs to get their bridge logic overhauled.

 

Pd opens 2♣ and bids a suit that you support with 4 card + singleton+8 hcp including an Ace, and you leave him in 4♥ just because he did not like the splinter suit?

 

FYI, this splinter shows about 5-7 hcp. Opener bids accordingly. With more he expects partner to continue. You are not making splinter against a 1 level opening. You are not making splinter against a reverse hand. You are splintering against a 2♣ opener.

[ahydra]

Anyone who thinks S is at fault needs to get their bridge logic overhauled.

 

Pd opens 2♣ and bids a suit that you support with 4 card + singleton+8 hcp including an Ace, and you leave him in 4♥ just because he did not like the splinter suit?

 

FYI, this splinter shows about 5-7 hcp. Opener bids accordingly. With more he expects partner to continue. You are not making splinter against a 1 level opening. You are not making splinter against a reverse hand. You are splintering against a 2♣ opener.

 

I'm not sure about this. From South's point of view, assuming the splinter is a small singleton and not the Q or A, partner has almost certainly got the CA for his splinter bid. He's a favourite to hold a black queen as well, taking care of the spade loser and possibly a diamond as well. So 12 tricks have got to be at least pretty close.

 

Still, I'd apportion 80% of the blame to North and 20% to South. The case for South bidding 4S or 4NT rather than 4H is much less clear-cut than the fact that North was a total wimp on this hand. It's not just eight points - it's probably five tricks!

 

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

Anyone who thinks S is at fault needs to get their bridge logic overhauled.

 

Pd opens 2♣ and bids a suit that you support with 4 card + singleton+8 hcp including an Ace, and you leave him in 4♥ just because he did not like the splinter suit?

 

FYI, this splinter shows about 5-7 hcp. Opener bids accordingly. With more he expects partner to continue. You are not making splinter against a 1 level opening. You are not making splinter against a reverse hand. You are splintering against a 2♣ opener.

 

I disagree:

 

How do you want S to bid with say AKJ, AQxxx, KQJx, K, I'd suggest exactly like this and N wants to sign off, 5 is not secure.

 

N needs as little as Q10xx, xxxx, x, Axxx to make a slam all but certain with the actual south hand, and the 5 level looks fairly safe.

[Kaitlyn S]

North definitely needs to do more. I don't think North shows the ♣A (I think Qxxx, xxxx, x, Qxxx is a splinter) but I think I'd try 4S with South over 4D.

[mycroft]

Kaitlyn, North won't have that hand (I had to check OP again, too). He's promised at least one control, Q-Q is an immediate 2♥ call over 2♣. That does change the minimum for 4♦ somewhat. Given South's hand, North guarantees the ♣A, or we need to have a talk about splinters.

 

In general: After 2♣-2♦; 2♥ (natural), North has 3 reasonable calls with a 4=4=1=4, 4♥, 3♥, and 4♦. Clearly we have too much for 4♥ "partner I have a king and I have hearts. That's about it". Do we want to show slam interest because of our ♣AQ or because of our ♦x? Advantage of 3♥ is that you get the whole 4 level for cuebidding/serious 3NT/whatever. Advantage of 4♦ is that it's going to be very difficult to show distributional second-round diamond control if you don't do it now. There's an argument that last-suit splinters need to be more defined than others, because there's no "last train"-type call available, which either leans toward 3♥ or knowing you're going to take another call after 4♦ when you make it.

 

I think North is worth another call; you'd make a slam try 4♦ with the same hand without at least one of the queens, right? I think South is worth blasting 6. How to look for 7? That's the interesting question.

[rmnka447]

The problem with the splinter is that it takes up too much bidding space. I think North is better served to make the strong 3 ♥ raise. North's hand is terrific opposite a strong ♥ hand. It has controls in both minors and a potentially useful honor in ♠. ♣ AQ provide at least 1 sure cover card (and potentially 2 cover cards if opener holds ♣ K) for opener's 4 loser or less hand. In addition, the ♦ shortness provides some ability to ruff opener's ♦ losers, if any. So, responder's hand certainly looks like some slam exploration should occur.

 

In my world, 3 ♥ shows 8+ HCP and good trump support usually at least xxxx or Hxx. While it hides the ♦ shortness, it leaves room for possibly showing the ♣ control below game. It also potentially allows opener to cue a ♠ control which tends to make the ♠ Q a bit more valuable.

 

After 3 ♥, opener can bid 3 ♠ and responder now has the opportunity to show the ♣ control.

 

It seems like responder focused on the ♦ shortness. That's OK, but responder should think about how to follow up if opener simply bids 4 ♥. If responder is unwilling to bid 5 ♣ as a follow up, then perhaps bidding 3 ♥ initially is better.

 

 

 

 

Just for kicks, I'll include how my favorite partner and I would bid the hand (structured 1st round first cueing [sweep cues])

 

2 ♣ - 2 ♦

2 ♥ - 3 ♥

3 ♠

(starts cueing 1st in ♠, does not promise or deny any other control)

..... - 4 ♣

(1st round control in ♣, denies a 1st in ♦)

4 ♠

(2nd round control in ♠, denies a 1st in ♦)

..... - 4 NT

(not RKC, waiting bid shows further slam interest, no 2nd in ♣)

5 ♣

(2nd in ♣, does not deny any other control)

..... - 5 ♦

(2nd round control in ♦)

6 ♥

(opener knows ♦ control is singleton and that responder must have a useful Q somewhere to get to 8+ HCP)

 

 

Perhaps some mixed control cue bidders could provide some auctions for OP.

[ggwhiz]

Splinters have their place when properly defined but not on this hand.

 

A simple raise to 3♥ followed by a 3♠ then 4♣ cue and Bob's your uncle instead of self pre-emption that (right or wrong) caused south to devalue their diamond holding and probably right if the splinter could be 3 card support.

 

Maybe a splinter in the suit 1 step below game should promise another bid but I prefer the slow route on an auction like this.

[Jinksy]

I disagree:

 

How do you want S to bid with say AKJ, AQxxx, KQJx, K, I'd suggest exactly like this and N wants to sign off, 5 is not secure.

 

N needs as little as Q10xx, xxxx, x, Axxx to make a slam all but certain with the actual south hand, and the 5 level looks fairly safe.

 

If I opened 2♣ on that hand, it would be intending to rebid 2N, not 2♥.

[johnu]

What is the definition of 2♦ as a positive response? Is a bare ace or king with nothing else a positive response or do you need more?

[Cyberyeti]

If I opened 2♣ on that hand, it would be intending to rebid 2N, not 2♥.

 

Absolutely hate 2N rebid on AKJ, AQxxx, KQJx, K, partner always has Qxxx, x, A109xx, xxx and we go off in 3N instead of making 6♦ after 3♣-3♥-3N, it's easy if you bid your shape.

[MrAce]

Absolutely hate 2N rebid on AKJ, AQxxx, KQJx, K, partner always has Qxxx, x, A109xx, xxx and we go off in 3N instead of making 6♦ after 3♣-3♥-3N, it's easy if you bid your shape.

 

LOL

[wank]

north has far too much for a splinter, unless he thinks he's got enough for a 2nd go, which would be my choice. i'm having a great deal of difficulty finding any hands where 5 is in danger.

 

mrace's 5-7 is also far more than i'd have. i'd have no more than a 4 count (and it wouldn't be an ace).

 

 

 

 

a splinter says we aren't making slam unless you've got a perfect holding in the splinter suit.

 

this is the kind of hand opening hand splinters are for:-

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sakqhakj543da43c2]133|100[/hv]

 

as for this alternate hand with akj aqxxx kqjx k that's being quoted, it's not a game force in hearts, is it? it's either a 1 heart opener or a balanced hand of whatever range you choose.

[Cyberyeti]

as for this alternate hand with akj aqxxx kqjx k that's being quoted, it's not a game force in hearts, is it? it's either a 1 heart opener or a balanced hand of whatever range you choose.

 

A lot of hands you have to open 2♣ with and GF aren't truly worth a GF, but are too good to do anything else with, plenty of flattish 0-2 counts that will make game opposite this one.

[wank]

A lot of hands you have to open 2♣ with and GF aren't truly worth a GF, but are too good to do anything else with, plenty of flattish 0-2 counts that will make game opposite this one.

 

if you can make game opposite a 3333 +1 random card in a sidesuit, you've got a GF. that hand is miles away. opening the actual hand 2C is sporting enough.

 

it's 23 with a stiff king. it's not a radical position to say this is a 1 opener lol (assuming you don't want to call it balanced).

[Phil]

Both underbid but Norths was more serious.

[Cyberyeti]

if you can make game opposite a 3333 +1 random card in a sidesuit, you've got a GF. that hand is miles away. opening the actual hand 2C is sporting enough.

 

it's 23 with a stiff king. it's not a radical position to say this is a 1 opener lol (assuming you don't want to call it balanced).

 

I use slightly lesser criteria for it, I'm prepared to open some pretty strong 1 bids, but I've yet to find a 23 count that I've opened at the 1 level.

 

Opposite quite a few flattish 0 counts I'd rather play 4♥ than 2N (admittedly I'd rather play 1♥) but there are plenty of hands I'd rather not play in 1♥ where I can find the right spot after 2♣.

[lycier]

North's 4♦ as a splinter bid is too worse since 4♦ wasted too much room. After 2♣ opening, it should know both of partners should save more space as possible so as to exchange more informations and probe for potential slam when north has some suit control with trumph fit. So normal bidding sequence is north should raise to bid 3♥ at first, then they cuebid to show suit control. As a result, it is easy to get a slam contract.

[dboxley]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakjhakq65dkj53ck&n=sq642ht972d7caq75&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=2cp2dp2hp4dp4hppp]266|200|2D is positive response(one K at least) which deny good 5+card suit (2 of AKQ), 4D splinter[/hv]

 

a) Any opinion about what went wrong on this auction?

b) Your minimum value for the 4D splinter call? Is 3 card support acceptable?

c) Please suggest a reasonable auction to reach the proper contract.

 

a) North can't make a splinter and then decide to pass 4♥. Once S rebid 2♥ N should drive to slam unless they are off 2 quick cashers. He should start by setting trump with 3H which invites slam and initiates cue bidding. S should now cue 3♠ and N can ask for keycards.knowing the opps can't cash 2 spades off the top.

[helene_t]

I don't think South underbid. He has a minimum 2♣ and the splinter is not helpful to him.

 

North has a monster and can't possibly stop short of slam.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

a) North has to do more, he has at least a Ace more, actually AQ, he has to move over 4H.

b) yes, 3 cards are enough, you may or may not like it after 1M opening, but in the given seq.,

you have a 9 card fit, and space is limited, and after showing the support via a simple raise,

you dont have any room left for a splinter.

c) either North continues over the 4H bid, or chooses 3H, which should be forcing and showing SI,

2D was generating a GF, and the splinter consumes a lot of space, so you should avoid it, if

you are unsure, if passing the neg. is a good idea. Given Norths hand, he should feel unconfortable,

if he intends always to move, than go for the splinter.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe