Windows client retirement feedback thread

[r_prah]

What about I (and other people) who have purchased Bridge Master, as well as several of the other paid softwares (Larry Cohen's LM Pairs, Larry Cohen's My Favorite 52, Right through the pack, etc)? Will the web version include a plan to have these softwares? Or will you be issuing refunds for the items purchased? Thanks in advance for an official response.

[scarletv]

Saving it is not easy, and we've added this to the list of features missing on web.

Good news!

 

When teachers and players are able to download and upload hands it would be possible to build up a library for hands. That would be a great thing to have for both learning and teaching.

 

Chat area can be resized on web, it's not a fix area. And you can go back as far as you need, chat scrolls back to whenever you logged on BBO.

Especially when your web is not as reliable as you would like it to be you are facing problems. For example there are sessions held by the German DBV but some of the teachers have frequently disconnections. This means you cannot save the hands as they disappear. When you yourself have a bad conn every time you are disconnected the chat is gone too.

[kenberg]

I'll cope. When I play I usually use the downloadable version, perhaps just because I am used to it. But I'll cope.

 

One feature of the downloadable that, last i heard, is not on the web version, and I will miss it: Looking up the hands others have played.

 

I can look up hands I have played, of course. But on the downloadable, anyone can look up the hands I have played. Presumably few want to exactly that, but I use this feature in two ways.

 

Sometimes I get a little suspicious. Someone makes a very odd play that works. I stay calm and, later, i look up some other hands he has payed. Almost always, i find that he often makes unusual moves and mostly they don't work. He just has an unusual style and sometimes it works, mostly it doesn't, no reason to get excited.

 

The more frequent reason is for kibbing. Yes, if i see an interesting hand for discussion with others I should save it. But sometimes I don't, but I wish later that I had. On the downloadable, I go to the review hands played and put in rfp or jec or whomever I am interested in and up come the hands.

 

I asked earlier about this and I was told I was right, this doesn't exist on the web version. too bad.

 

I have no wish to invade anyone's privacy. It should be easy enough to offer players an option that after their session is complete only the players can access the hand records, if they feel such a need. I don't feel such a need and I doubt jec pr rfp does either. I haven't asked of course, and it is far more likely someone wants ot look up thier hands than to look up mine, but it would be nice if we could.

 

[Here I had some meandering thoughts, now deleted]

[diana_eva]

The way you're looking up someone's hands on the old version is simply a shortcut to this page, which is not specific to the old version: http://www.bridgebase.com/myhands/index.php

 

I don't understand the comment about robots and speed. The tournaments are exactly the same, no matter what version users are logging from.

 

Speedballs won't get slower for old version users, and there are no ACBL old-version-only tourneys either.

 

As for robots, there are more tourneys accessible on the web version, but all the other tournaments that are visible and accessible from old version exist as well. There is NO tourney that is old version specific only.

[kenberg]

Thanks for the link.

 

The other thoughts were just random musing. I deleted them in the interest of keeping the thread focused.

[diana_eva]

Thanks for the link.

 

 

The link to hand records and other useful links can be found at www.bridgebase.com (header and footer). Some of those are available inside the web version too, some are not. Perhaps that's why whoever answered your question about hand records didn't know that they exist outside of the old version.

[diana_eva]

my focus is absolutely on VUGRAPH

 

is there documentation that discusses impact on vugraph in a way that allows ability to assess from the perspective of:

 

a) organizer

b) operator

c) commentator

d) spectator

 

* features in windows that will not be available in browser

top on my list of concerns is loss of local lin file that can be edited to correct the historical record

* features in browser that are not available in windows - that are not currently available in browser

i.e. no need to mention voice commentary

* features that are only being considered for later releases

* features that are rejected from consideration

 

Access to the old version will continue for vugraph operators for as long as necessary (ie, until a viable web alternative exists). Same for private club managers, they can continue to manage their club on the old version until the web version provides an alternative. Same for various categories of users who must use the older version, eg your aliases used to log lin files for the vugraph archives. Same for premium customers, if paying users strongly prefer to play on the older version they will be able to do so.

 

List of features that will be kept, considered, dumped is not final yet. That's the purpose of this thread, to collect feedback and put together a list of things old version users need and don't have on web.

 

[Kaitlyn S]

Same for private club managers, they can continue to manage their club on the old version until the web version provides an alternative.

Is it possible that club managers can be given a subforum at BBO forums and use the limited time they have left on the client to make their club members aware of the existence of club information on these forums? Since I'm not a member of any BBO clubs, I'm not sure how much of a decline in functionality this would be, but it seems like it should be a workable solution.

[diana_eva]

Is it possible that club managers can be given a subforum at BBO forums and use the limited time they have left on the client to make their club members aware of the existence of club information on these forums? Since I'm not a member of any BBO clubs, I'm not sure how much of a decline in functionality this would be, but it seems like it should be a workable solution.

 

You are confused about what exists on web and what not. There ARE private clubs on the web version. Members of private clubs are not affected in any way, they can still join classes, receive notices, etc.

 

Only private club managers are affected because they don't have the club management options on web (a set of tools they use to manage the club). This is a handful of people who can be granted access to the older version for as long as they need in order to maintain their club.

[barmar]

Especially when your web is not as reliable as you would like it to be you are facing problems. For example there are sessions held by the German DBV but some of the teachers have frequently disconnections.

The old version uses the network more heavily than the new version, mostly because it's frequently updating the list of everyone who's logged in (the new version only shows stars, yellows, and users you're following) and all the table and tourney lists (the web version gets these lists from the server only when you go to those screens) . So if you have a poor Internet connection, it's probably going to affect the old version more.

[barmar]

I don't understand the comment about robots and speed. The tournaments are exactly the same, no matter what version users are logging from.

Not sure what this is in reference to, was it in the "meandering thoughts" that Ken edited out?

 

Maybe he's referring to robots in the MBC, not a tourney. If you play with robots at a regular table, it runs GIB on your PC, it doesn't use the version running on our servers. The pro is that it may run faster. The con is that the downloaded GIB doesn't get the regular improvements we make to the bidding rules database, so it may not play as well.

[diana_eva]

Not sure what this is in reference to, was it in the "meandering thoughts" that Ken edited out?

 

Maybe he's referring to robots in the MBC, not a tourney. If you play with robots at a regular table, it runs GIB on your PC, it doesn't use the version running on our servers. The pro is that it may run faster. The con is that the downloaded GIB doesn't get the regular improvements we make to the bidding rules database, so it may not play as well.

 

Yes was reference to musings, doesn't matter now :)

[Oceanss]

Access to the old version will continue for vugraph operators for as long as necessary (ie, until a viable web alternative exists). Same for private club managers, they can continue to manage their club on the old version until the web version provides an alternative.

We can not ask for more :D Thanks BBO !

[barmar]

Something we didn't mention specifically in the announcement is that the system will have a list of users that will still be allowed to use the old version. So if you have a critical dependency on the old version, we will be able to add you to the list.

[scarletv]

The old version uses the network more heavily than the new version, mostly because it's frequently updating the list of everyone who's logged in (the new version only shows stars, yellows, and users you're following) and all the table and tourney lists (the web version gets these lists from the server only when you go to those screens) . So if you have a poor Internet connection, it's probably going to affect the old version more.

Thanks I nearly always use the browser version though I am still annoyed by that terrible noise when cards are played and I am not happy to see the news feed instead of my friends list and I am not able to adapt the screen in the way I would like to ... But I really understand that resources are limited and I am willing to fund BBO via robot tourneys.

 

BTW when I am in a hotel with a really bad internet I sometimes switched to the old download. That might be very slow at the login process but more reliable when you made it in. I am lucky I did not have to do that for quite a while. Wifi in hotels is getting better here around.

 

The problem I tried to describe is independent from the access I use. Disconnections might happen if a mobile connection is used or if in a hotel with bad wifi or maybe because one of the ads is spamming the computer or maybe it is just a user fault. Whenever that happens and the teacher is disconnected, the table will be closed and the hands are lost. And I can tell you it happens. For teaching and practicing purposes it would be an improvement to have the boards of teaching and bidding tables saved somewhere.

[onoway]

Access to the old version will continue for vugraph operators for as long as necessary (ie, until a viable web alternative exists). Same for private club managers, they can continue to manage their club on the old version until the web version provides an alternative. Same for various categories of users who must use the older version, eg your aliases used to log lin files for the vugraph archives. Same for premium customers, if paying users strongly prefer to play on the older version they will be able to do so.

 

List of features that will be kept, considered, dumped is not final yet. That's the purpose of this thread, to collect feedback and put together a list of things old version users need and don't have on web.

This is VERY good news and entirely unexpected. Thank you! In that case I will try to distill out the major things that I personally find the most problematic about the web version. When it seemed as though it was a done deal as of February, a more critical look at exactly what the main issues are (at least for me) seemed to be a waste of time.

[Eszter5]

Something we didn't mention specifically in the announcement is that the system will have a list of users that will still be allowed to use the old version. So if you have a critical dependency on the old version, we will be able to add you to the list.

How can we get on that list?

[johnu]

The Windows client hand display is about 15-20 years ahead of the Web version. This is basically the OKBridge interface with fancier graphics which was OK for something from the early days of the internet. I've suggested several times that the Web version have options to:

 

1) Display dummy in columns by suit

 

I would also like to point out under the laws of Duplicate Bridge Law 41(D) which says

 

Dummy’s Hand

 

After the opening lead is faced, dummy spreads his

hand in front of him on the table, face up, sorted

into suits, the cards in order of rank with lowest

ranking cards towards declarer, and in columns

pointing lengthwise towards declarer. Trumps are

placed to dummy’s right. Declarer plays both his

hand and that of dummy.

 

 

If there was some computer related technical limitation that prevented this, that would be one thing but the Windows version was already programmed to do this, as well as some other sites I have seen in the past. For those that learn to play bridge on BBO, trying to "translate" dummy in a live game isn't going to help them. For those who have spent thousands of hours playing live bridge, sure you can tolerate an illegally displayed dummy, but why do you have to?

[fred]

I would also like to point out under the laws of Duplicate Bridge Law 41(D) which says

 

Dummy’s Hand

 

After the opening lead is faced, dummy spreads his

hand in front of him on the table, face up, sorted

into suits, the cards in order of rank with lowest

ranking cards towards declarer, and in columns

pointing lengthwise towards declarer. Trumps are

placed to dummy’s right. Declarer plays both his

hand and that of dummy.

 

 

If there was some computer related technical limitation that prevented this, that would be one thing but the Windows version was already programmed to do this, as well as some other sites I have seen in the past. For those that learn to play bridge on BBO, trying to "translate" dummy in a live game isn't going to help them. For those who have spent thousands of hours playing live bridge, sure you can tolerate an illegally displayed dummy, but why do you have to?

There were two main reasons why we decided to go with the horizontal dummy in the web-client:

 

1) It allowed us to make the cards bigger. This is especially important for people who have poor vision and/or who are not great with a mouse.

 

2) When the Windows client was first developed, the most common screen resolutions were 800x600 and 1024x768 (that is, 4:3 aspect ratios). In more recent times the trend has been toward monitors with larger aspect ratios (such as 16:9). Vertical space is now at a premium. The fact that the web-client runs in a browser and that browsers eat up their own vertical space makes things worse.

 

Yes there are other possible configurations of the primary screen components (the table, chat, and the list of results) that we could have used that might have allowed for a nice-looking vertical dummy with big cards (at least on some monitors). However, this is a complex subject and I am not prepared to get into a long discussion about the pluses and minuses of the various alternatives (sorry).

 

Suffice it to say, this was not a decision that was made lightly. Overall we judged that the advantages of a horizontal dummy in the web-client outweighed the disadvantages. If, after reading the above, you still disagree with our decision then that is your right of course. But hopefully you will at least appreciate that we had what we thought were sound reasons for this difficult design decision.

 

We receive very very few complaints about the horizontal dummy. Evidently it is something that many 1000s of people can happily deal with once they get used to it.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[onoway]

One thing that is already a problem rises out of running a team match series with a number of matches going on simultaneously. On the download version, the home captains can set their matches in the interests of speed and efficiency, and add a director to oversee things, as in a tourney. That appears to be not possible on the web version and caused some havoc in the last series.

 

It would be HUGELY helpful if this was solved, as right now the only option appears to be to wail for help from a Yellow to add me as a director so I can help if a match has a problem. Or get some "remainer" on each team, rather than the captain, to set the match, which is cumbersome, but possible -for now- for at least some of the teams. Many people seem not to know if they are on download or web ( I've been asked how they can tell by a bunch of people, most of them are on the web but not all) so I've no idea whether or not we still have that many people clutching onto the download version who will be playing in the various teams for the team matches.

[diana_eva]

One thing that is already a problem rises out of running a team match series with a number of matches going on simultaneously. On the download version, the home captains can set their matches in the interests of speed and efficiency, and add a director to oversee things, as in a tourney. That appears to be not possible on the web version and caused some havoc in the last series.

 

It would be HUGELY helpful if this was solved, as right now the only option appears to be to wail for help from a Yellow to add me as a director so I can help if a match has a problem. Or get some "remainer" on each team, rather than the captain, to set the match, which is cumbersome, but possible -for now- for at least some of the teams. Many people seem not to know if they are on download or web ( I've been asked how they can tell by a bunch of people, most of them are on the web but not all) so I've no idea whether or not we still have that many people clutching onto the download version who will be playing in the various teams for the team matches.

 

It is possible to add one or more co-TDs in team match on web. The difference to old version is that you have to add the TDs after the match has started, but the option exists. Click Edit Tournament in the Director panel, and there's a list of TDs where you can add/remove people. Here's a screenshot: https://snag.gy/XHFyG0.jpg

[onoway]

It is possible to add one or more co-TDs in team match on web. The difference to old version is that you have to add the TDs after the match has started, but the option exists. Click Edit Tournament in the Director panel, and there's a list of TDs where you can add/remove people. Here's a screenshot: https://snag.gy/XHFyG0.jpg

ok thank you I didn't know that. I will try to get the captains to do this but I don't hold much hope out, they have other things on their mind once they are at the match.

[barmar]

How can we get on that list?

Contact Rain or Jacki.

[jandrew]

... Same for private club managers, they can continue to manage their club on the old version until the web version provides an alternative. ....

 

Something we didn't mention specifically in the announcement is that the system will have a list of users that will still be allowed to use the old version. So if you have a critical dependency on the old version, we will be able to add you to the list.

 

Contact Rain or Jacki.

 

This all looks like good news and is a positive way forward.

 

Although we, in the Acol Club, are not a private club, we run our tournaments using a members' list which is updated frequently and used by a group of hosts for every tournament.

 

In our case this requires using the old version until such time as the new version can be made to read a file of names held on the host's computer or on the web.

 

I have abandoned drafting my detailed email and hope that a shorter request in the next few days will suffice to ensure that our tournaments, which have been running for nearly 10 years, can continue to run beyond the end of January 2017 - perhaps for a further 10 years.

[onoway]

Probably the main problem I have with the web version comes down to things which were simple on the download version are now complicated, even when they have been brought forward.

 

Adding a director to a team match is one example, having two chat boxes to keep track of and to move out of the way or make bigger or smaller is another, and a third -and major one for me - is accessing who is kibbing at a table.

 

I know it is possible on web version to see kibbers as someone told me how to do it once, but I don't remember how I did it, something about going somewhere and clicking on something but it certainly isn't intuitive. I don't understand why it has to be something I should have to "remember how to do" when it is so intuitive..if you want to see who is visiting at a table you look at who is standing around the table..on the download version.

 

This is a constant source of frustration and irritation in a tourney, especially if there might have been some recurring questions about a player's bids or play. It's useful sometimes to see if a specific kibber who is otherwise never seen online, and may indeed never have played a hand on BBO, might be shadowing a player. Or not. Since directing often involves moving from table to table it should imo, be no hassle to be able to see who is at the kib box with me.

 

As an aside, there is no way on the web to limit subs in a tourney to members as there is on download. It's possible to restrict in some ways, but membership is not one of them. That's a mixed blessing, in that we have access to more subs, but often they are runners, (even with a high Completion rate specified)sometimes they are abusive and have to be booted etc. I know I won't miss a member willing to sub on download, it's a gamble on the webversion if we get a member or not, we don't know who all the members are by name, obviously. This is not a major item at all, just an observation, it is a very minor thing imo. If members want to be sure to play, they should get a partner and register :).

 

But just in general at a table, especially if playing, I really want to be able to see at a glance who is kibbing, otherwise it feels like being in a zoo. There are numerous other examples of how complicated it is to do things on the web version which are simple and intuitive on download but this is a big one for me.

 

Even trying to go into a room with kibs, the computer tells me there are no open tables, why should I have to argue that I want to go in anyway? Small thing for sure, but like an mosquito bite each time it happens, just annoying. I have to explain to people all the time that they need to tell the computer to show full tables to get to teaching sessions.

 

To be sure, there are some things which are better on the webversion. It is just a testament to the quality of the original BBO site that it is still preferred by so many in spite of that. I suspect most of the objections rise out of the business of it now being so complicated to do things which we are accustomed to finding simple. So we know it's possible.