Windows client retirement feedback thread

[ping2827]

In Windows version there is a feature player could create his own detailed CC file and upload to BBO server. The web version does not support it. Will BBO enhance the web version to support it?

[StevenG]

I just had a look at the web version to see how I will be affected when the Windows client is no longer available. It appears to be impossible to replicate my experience while kibbing.

 

1) It is impossible to rotate the deal so that declarer is South. I find it difficult to follow the hand without this feature.

2) GIB seems to be single card only. I like to watch interesting deals with GIB on, so as to see (if I'm lucky!) whether my proposed endplay or squeeze might actually work. This isn't realistic if you have to click GIB on every card.

 

These are minor compared to ...

3) There is no option to bring up the table list when you're kibbing. I often kib to pass the time while I'm waiting for a worthwhile table. If I want a reasonable game, it is really the case that there is no other choice than to sit with the open tables screen in front of me? In the Windows client, I can see the open tables while kibbing. If I can't kib while looking for a game, there doesn't seem to be any point in coming in at all.

 

If you're going to kill the Windows client for some reason you haven't explained, can you at least please try to replicate the important functionality in the web version.

[jeffford76]

Is there any plan for giving access to Bridgemaster hands for people who have paid for them in the Windows version?

[scarletv]

These are minor compared to ...

3) There is no option to bring up the table list when you're kibbing. I often kib to pass the time while I'm waiting for a worthwhile table. If I want a reasonable game, it is really the case that there is no other choice than to sit with the open tables screen in front of me? In the Windows client, I can see the open tables while kibbing. If I can't kib while looking for a game, there doesn't seem to be any point in coming in at all.

When you are kibbing or playing at a table you can get a list of tables by

1) BBO Now

2) List of tables

3) Select Main hall/tourneys/...

It is not very comfortable but it works

[StevenG]

When you are kibbing or playing at a table you can get a list of tables by

1) BBO Now

2) List of tables

3) Select Main hall/tourneys/...

It is not very comfortable but it works

Thanks, that does work after a fashion. You have to move and resize it though and it still obscures other parts of the screen you might be interested in. It's a shame that you can't combine options - open+friends is my usual setting (ususally a small enough number in the Acol club).

[kthorpe]

Ugh. While I am happy to use the web interface to watch VuGraph, I ALWAYS play with the Windows version which I have much preferred.

 

I will make a real effort to use the web for the next while, before I am forced to, but am concerned re Adobe Flash - my partners in the past who play on the web version often crash several times a match!! Hope Chrome is happy with it since it is the only browser I have now.

 

Katie

[Aberlour10]

 

For me, the Windows client is 10X better experience than the web version, even though it hasn't been updated for 8 years. If I want to use some of the new features, I can open the web version. The playing experience is where 90% of development should go IMHO, as everything else is peripheral stuff, and I don't see that the playing environment has changed in years.

 

This hits the nail on the head for me, word by word.

 

I really hope, this radical cut will bring BBO more success than damage. But I doubt it for many reasons.

 

 

 

[onoway]

It effectively closes down the clubs as we will no longer be able to communicate with members. It's a bit difficult to see how this can be an asset to BBO, other than it will redirect players to the increasing use of GIBS, which I assume is the point, since they are a revenue source and the clubs are not.

 

However, since many of the club members in IAC at least are not at all happy using the webversion, I suspect many will simply leave and either stop playing bridge, or at least stop playing bridge on BBO, I know of some who already have when they changed computers and lost the download version.

 

It seems a little counterproductive to chase clients away from the site when the costs for keeping the download version would appear to be minimal, since there is and has been no maintenance. Some will move, reluctantly. Others will leave.

 

As a matter of interest, has the overall membership continued to grow or is it shrinking?

[gordontd]

What is the plan for Vu-Graph? I hope that also goes across to the web version so that we can avoid the interminable wait to log on while 10,000 users' names are loaded.

[JanM]

What is the plan for Vu-Graph? I hope that also goes across to the web version so that we can avoid the interminable wait to log on while 10,000 users' names are loaded.

 

Vugraph will move to the web version sometime, but not immediately. Among the advantages of the move is that we will be able to use inexpensive, light, small, reliable chromebooks for Vugraph operators, which should make it even easier for people to organize broadcasts.

 

There are also improvements planned to the operator and organizer interface, which won't be apparent to you as a spectator, but will make the lives of those of us who organize Vugraph broadcasts easier, so I for one am looking forward to the move. Having said that, I'm also not holding my breath, since there are many things with higher priority, including I'm sure some of the things people have requested in this thread.

[Oceanss]

Such decision is, by all means, sad and bad.

I personally use web mostly, because of some of its new features, but as a designer myself, I still think that old version was zillion times better designed and friendlier for a user. Yet, that's the least of the troubles.. Having in mind steady decline of number of bridge players, I thought BBO was encouraging people to learn the game, along with all good world-known bridge players and recognized bridge teachers. For years it was home to BIL, IAC, ACOL, only to mention few clubs, that helped so many players, and in so many ways. Imho BBO is cruelly punishing all those that are still learning - no events would be organized, no lessons would be announced, and what teacher would want share their experience and waste their time to only 2-3 players that happened by chance to join the table?

Is it easy to ignore that a tournament restricted to certain group of players, alike in skill and experience, free from runners and fake experts, would be better enviroment for them?

We have been told that old version won't be updated, and had to accept that, fine... But I fail to see what advantages closing the clubs down can can bring to BBO. So what's the real REAL reason BBO now wants old version dead and buried??

.

.

Why none answered this ??

Purely out of curiosity, I would be interested to know some stats.

Such as, how many users currently stick to the Windows client, in absolute terms and relative to others?

And such as, just how much does it cost BBO to allow such users to continue to use the Windows client? Certainly it costs nothing in maintenance and support, since it does not provide any. So I am expecting it is just down to the cost of bandwidth?

 

Edit: Another question please... Why this news weren't published on BBO News feed?? Not all read forums and all its topics.. Does someone hope get as little negative feedback as possible?

[gordontd]

Vugraph will move to the web version sometime, but not immediately. Among the advantages of the move is that we will be able to use inexpensive, light, small, reliable chromebooks for Vugraph operators, which should make it even easier for people to organize broadcasts.

 

There are also improvements planned to the operator and organizer interface, which won't be apparent to you as a spectator, but will make the lives of those of us who organize Vugraph broadcasts easier, so I for one am looking forward to the move. Having said that, I'm also not holding my breath, since there are many things with higher priority, including I'm sure some of the things people have requested in this thread.

Good news - I was asking as an organiser, not a spectator.

[Kaitlyn S]

Imho BBO is cruelly punishing all those that are still learning - no events would be organized, no lessons would be announced, and what teacher would want share their experience and waste their time to only 2-3 players that happened by chance to join the table?

This post probably doesn't belong here and probably should be the start of another thread elsewhere, but I'm curious what experiences casual teachers have teaching on BBO. I did try it with a table a while ago just to see what the experience was like. I offered a short lesson and announced it on the forum here, and a few times in the lobby chat and I got about a dozen students in the room. Of course, I am nobody who tried an experiment and if one of the name teachers offered a lesson, I imagine there would be hundreds if there was a way for students to find out that the famous teacher was giving a lesson here.

[barmar]

Such decision is, by all means, sad and bad.

I personally use web mostly, because of some of its new features, but as a designer myself, I still think that old version was zillion times better designed and friendlier for a user. Yet, that's the least of the troubles.. Having in mind steady decline of number of bridge players, I thought BBO was encouraging people to learn the game, along with all good world-known bridge players and recognized bridge teachers.

This doesn't affect new players at all. We stopped allowing new accounts to use the old version several years ago. So only people who have been members of BBO for more than 3 years are using the old version.

Edit: Another question please... Why this news weren't published on BBO News feed?? Not all read forums and all its topics.. Does someone hope get as little negative feedback as possible?

It will be in the news feed on Monday, we decided to let the forum know first. We'll also be sending a popup to users of the old version.

[MrAce]

In BW someone wrote

To all the people here who have said something along the lines of "BBO doesn't owe anything to anybody", I don't think you could get more wrong if you tried. BBO, like any other commercial entity since the advent of commerce, owes everything, including its very existence, to its customers, without whom there would be no BBO.

And I replied.

This is way too funny and I could not disagree more. But this is often the fallacy of people who did not grasp the difference between "rights" and "privilege or choice".

Assume I have an apartment complex. I have a swimming pool and gym buildings in it as well. I let you and other people, live in the apartments for free. But I charge you for using swimming pool and gym. Which you are NOT required to use in order to keep the apartments!(that is important)

Later, I decide to remodel the apartments you are living in for free. And I do not ask ANY of you to contribute in remodeling. Some of you love the new model and some of you hate it. And I can not afford to keep both the old ones and new ones. It is way too expensive for me business wise. The mentality that says "I OWE you guys my existence because you used my apartments for free, therefore I have to keep them both" or "I have to let people who uses my apartment for free decide how my apartment complex looks like" deserves a reply that I can not possibly express without Eugene removing my reply, so I won't.

Whether my decision was good or bad business wise, time will tell and I may actually end up losing money because of my decision. But I do not OWE anyone ANYTHING!

[Oceanss]

This post probably doesn't belong here and probably should be the start of another thread elsewhere, but I'm curious what experiences casual teachers have teaching on BBO.

Sorry, Kaitlyn, with all due respect, BUT YOUR previous post in this topic does not belong here, with all nice and long reply it got from Diana; while ignoring all questions previosly asked.

I am glad you had nice turn out for your lesson, but you likely do not know IAC and BIL hold weekly or so lessons with often 50+ students following. Most are continuous lessons as from Hondo or OliverC, that are going all year long.

 

This doesn't affect new players at all. We stopped allowing new accounts to use the old version several years ago. So only people who have been members of BBO for more than 3 years are using the old version.

I know that new users must use web version. But killing old version will affect BBO_IAC announcing to members that certain lesson will be held at specific time and day. And we won't be able add newbies to a club. So it kills the club and it's purpose in the root.

 

Whether my decision was good or bad business wise, time will tell and I may actually end up losing money because of my decision. But I do not OWE anyone ANYTHING!

Awww, Mr Ace, you of all I respect most in forums.. You are SO RIGHT. BUT, but, we just must protest and whine, even if in vain, for having legs amputated? ;)

[Kaitlyn S]

But I do not OWE anyone ANYTHING!

Anybody that has read my posts in the Water Cooler where I have recently taken over the position of most hated poster will not be the least bit surprised about what I am about to say:

 

MrAce is 100% right about this. They put up a product that we can use for free. They are entitled to do whatever they want with it. While for the sake of other bridge teachers that have the client, I would have liked to see a different decision, I totally respect their right to make any decision they want to.

[Kaitlyn S]

Sorry, Kaitlyn, with all due respect, BUT YOUR previous post in this topic does not belong here, with all nice and long reply it got from Diana; while ignoring all questions previosly asked.

In theory, I agree. As a practical matter, I have to disagree.

 

For there are going to be other bridge teachers who have been using the client "forever" and may have the same question I do. And which thread are they going to be looking at? The one which tells them their functionality is going away! So they can Diana's answer here, or they can not read it because they guessed incorrectly in which forum I posted the question (or that anybody else asked at all), and post it again in another forum. I, for one, don't want to give Diana the extra work of answering the same question several times. Do you?

[diana_eva]

There will be more "official" replies coming to address the rest of the questions such as will there be no more rubber bridge, what happens to FD CCs, private clubs, stats, etc. For the time being we're collecting feedback, trying to understand what players would like to see on web that isn't already there.

 

As for the teaching thing, teaching on web is much easier and has a lot more tools than on the old version. You can upload a deal to a teaching table or to the hand editor from almost anywhere. The dealer is incredibly flexible.

 

What oceanss is referring to is private club management and organisation, not the act of setting up a teaching table.

[onoway]

There will be more "official" replies coming to address the rest of the questions such as will there be no more rubber bridge, what happens to FD CCs, private clubs, stats, etc. For the time being we're collecting feedback, trying to understand what players would like to see on web that isn't already there.

 

As for the teaching thing, teaching on web is much easier and has a lot more tools than on the old version. You can upload a deal to a teaching table or to the hand editor from almost anywhere. The dealer is incredibly flexible.

 

What oceanss is referring to is private club management and organisation, not the act of setting up a teaching table.

One of the MAJOR disadvantages of the web client is the miniscule and confusing chat section. On the web client it is impossible to keep track and make notes to go with the hands, often it is impossible to read the first part of a comment if it goes on a bit, much less refer back to it. Some of the teachers use BBO voice, which is iffy, when it works it's fine but many times it seems not to work very well. Last week for example in one session, there were numerous complaints about static and echo; but in all cases voice leaves no trace.

 

This has been a disadvantage even when the teachers use a combination of voice and chat, which many do, to clarify a sequence, for example. If there is a pause and someone you know arrives in BBO, the first part of the comment is lost to the ether. It is the antithesis of useful for someone trying to learn. It may be easier for the teacher but only if the goal is to teach, not if it is to have students actually learn.

[onoway]

This doesn't affect new players at all. We stopped allowing new accounts to use the old version several years ago. So only people who have been members of BBO for more than 3 years are using the old version.

 

But it does affect new players. it's not just what they can do but what we can do on download to enhance their experience on BBO such as arranging lessons and telling them about them, when and who and what. We will no longer be able to do that.

[onoway]

I will make one more comment. Giving something away or charging less than anyone else for a product and then charging for things on the back end, such as BBO has always done with Bridgemaster and GIBs etc, is a long accepted business model. Putting the competition out of business either by buying them out or simply overcoming them is normally the next step and that's one BBO took a while ago. Like Walmart. Now that it has a stranglehold on "the market" it can and is doing whatever it wants to. This is not the spirit of the BBO I joined a dozen or so years ago.

 

Like many others, I was happy to spend several hundred dollars over the years in BBO, because the value was there. I also was happy to promote it to everyone I knew who played bridge, and like countless others to volunteer hours of my time literally almost every week for the last 8 years trying to help some of the members have an experience which would resonate with and add value for them. I have no regrets or complaints about any of that. I can almost certainly guarantee that if BBO had started out with the web version, none of that would likely have happened.

 

It has been a reciprocal arrangement, not a one way street with BBO giving and everyone just taking and taking and then whining. So please don't tell me I have no right to protest when things go in a direction that I am forced to make a choice as to whether or not I will follow a path I find unpleasant and irritating.

 

I know that this is going to happen soon in any case. This is just sort of an expression of grief and anger at the loss of something I valued a lot.

[ahollan1]

As announced here, we will be retiring the old, Windows version of BBO starting in February 2017. For users still using the old version, we understand this will be a shock to the system. We've created a guide that will hopefully help with the transition. We will also listen to serious requests about missing features. So if there's something that is really hindering your transition, here is your place to say something.

 

Please try to keep this to showstoppers. We're aware of the minor cosmetic differences, for instance.

 

my focus is absolutely on VUGRAPH

 

is there documentation that discusses impact on vugraph in a way that allows ability to assess from the perspective of:

 

a) organizer

b) operator

c) commentator

d) spectator

 

* features in windows that will not be available in browser

top on my list of concerns is loss of local lin file that can be edited to correct the historical record

* features in browser that are not available in windows - that are not currently available in browser

i.e. no need to mention voice commentary

* features that are only being considered for later releases

* features that are rejected from consideration

[1eyedjack]

Giving something away or charging less than anyone else for a product and then charging for things on the back end, such as BBO has always done with Bridgemaster and GIBs etc, is a long accepted business model. Putting the competition out of business either by buying them out or simply overcoming them is normally the next step and that's one BBO took a while ago. Like Walmart. Now that it has a stranglehold on "the market" it can and is doing whatever it wants to. This is not the spirit of the BBO I joined a dozen or so years ago.

Suggesting base motives for the change is coming it a bit strong, I think. I seriously doubt that the presence or absence of competing sites featured. Fred et al have always been up front that BBO is a business that has to stand on its feet but have also consistently mixed that in with a philanthropic motive to protect the game.

 

That said, I have always considered it aesthetically regrettable that rubber is not offered as a format and at odds with the latter motive, despite that I would never play it myself so I do not complain about it. It is a bit like buying a collector's item LP that has a scratch on the B side that you don't want to play anyway.

[diana_eva]

One of the MAJOR disadvantages of the web client is the miniscule and confusing chat section. On the web client it is impossible to keep track and make notes to go with the hands, often it is impossible to read the first part of a comment if it goes on a bit, much less refer back to it. Some of the teachers use BBO voice, which is iffy, when it works it's fine but many times it seems not to work very well. Last week for example in one session, there were numerous complaints about static and echo; but in all cases voice leaves no trace.

 

This has been a disadvantage even when the teachers use a combination of voice and chat, which many do, to clarify a sequence, for example. If there is a pause and someone you know arrives in BBO, the first part of the comment is lost to the ether. It is the antithesis of useful for someone trying to learn. It may be easier for the teacher but only if the goal is to teach, not if it is to have students actually learn.

 

Chat area can be resized on web, it's not a fix area. And you can go back as far as you need, chat scrolls back to whenever you logged on BBO. You are right however that the web version needs improvements when it comes to saving teaching sessions. It is much easier to set up and run a teaching session on web than on the older version, and that was what I was thinking about when "defending" web :) Saving it is not easy, and we've added this to the list of features missing on web.