Crawling Stayman vs INV with 5-4 majors?

[Kungsgeten]

Do you use Crawling Stayman (where 1NT-2♣; 2♦-2♥ shows 4-4 majors in a weak hand), and if so: do you find it worthwhile? We currently use the sequence as invitational with 5-4 majors (either way; transferring to hearts and then bidding spades has another meaning). I guess another use for the sequence could be at least 5-4 majors, INV+ (should be possible to untangle).

 

If we were to use Crawling Stayman we would have no way to show invitational hands with 5-4 majors, so we would either have to treat these as 4-4 majors, force to game, or invite with the five card suit and miss a possible 4-4 fit.

[Jinksy]

It depends strongly on your NT range and form of scoring. Crawling Stayman is much improved by both MPs and a weak(er) NT. Playing both I would definitely use it. Playing neither I would definitely prefer something stronger. Playing one or the other, it would depend on what it gaps it would allow me to plug elsewhere in the system and how much we were suffering from them.

 

I would guess form of scoring is a bigger factor than, say 12-14 vs 15-17 NT range.

[Zelandakh]

What do you use 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ for? One logical scheme is for 5♥-4♠ to use 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2NT and 5♠4♥ to use 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2NT, with 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ and 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♠ then covering (inter alia) the balanced invites. The advantage of having these 5-4 hands finish on 2NT is being able to upgrade an invite into a game force based on there being a fit; the downside is not being able to stop in 2 of the major.

 

Crawling Stayman is certainly worthwhile from time to time. It is one of the few things I miss occasionally from playing a Puppet scheme. That said, it is not really such a big deal if not including it makes the rest of your structure more efficient.

[Kungsgeten]

Jinksy: We're using a (14)15-17 NT. 5M332 is systematically opened 1NT if in range. If holding a five card major the range is usually 14-16 (we play that a rebid after 1M-1NT promise an unbalanced hand, and with 17 we usually open Swedish 1♣ (12-14 NT or 17+). We also treat 4-4-1-4 as balanced, so these open 1NT if in range. We play matchpoints (in a pretty weak field) much more frequently, but overall the system is tailored towards IMPs and that's what we enjoy more.

 

Zel: 1NT-2♦ is a transfer to heart, but may be invitational with 4 hearts (those hands doesn't bid stayman, unless 4-4 majors). 1NT-2♦; 2♥-2♠ is INV with 5♥ (2NT would invite with four) or GF with 5-5 majors. 1NT-2♣; 2♦-2♠ is a GF relay (shape ask).

[ahydra]

We use this a lot (with a weak NT), and definitely find it worthwhile. For INV 5-4 hands we use the traditional, but probably subpar, method of jumping to 3M after 2D; transfer then a new suit is NAT GF.

 

ahydra

[steve2005]

Is crawling Stayman worth the occasional disaster when 1N opener is 2-2 in the majors?

[johnu]

Crawling Stayman is certainly worthwhile from time to time. It is one of the few things I miss occasionally from playing a Puppet scheme. That said, it is not really such a big deal if not including it makes the rest of your structure more efficient.

 

Puppet Stayman has its own version. With 5+ diamonds, and 2+ hearts and spades, you bid 2♣ and pass any response and you are guaranteed to play at least a 5-2 fit. Obviously this caters to a different type of signoff hand then regular Crawling Stayman but frequency wise it probably is even more common depending on the exact hand patterns used.

[blackshoe]

1NT-2♣-2♦-2♥: weak, 4-4, 5-4 or 4-5 in the majors.

1NT-2♣-2♦-2♠: invitational, 4-5 in the majors.

1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠: invitational, 5-4 in the majors.

1NT-2♣-2any-pass: weak, short in clubs ("Garbage Stayman")

1NT-2♣-2any-2NT: invitational, at least one 4 card major

1NT-2♠-2NT-pass: invitational, no 4 card major.

1NT-2♠-3♣-3NT: invitational, no 4 card major. (3 clubs shows a maximum 1NT opener).

[nekthen]

1NT-2♣-2any-pass: weak, short in clubs ("Garbage Stayman")

1NT-2♣-2any-2NT: invitational, at least one 4 card major

1NT-2♣-2♦-2♥: weak, 4-5 in the majors.

1NT-2♣-2♦-2♠: weak, 5-4 in the majors.

1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠: invitational, 4-5 in the majors.

1NT-2♣-2♦-3♥ invitational+ 5-4 majors

1NT-2♣-2♦-3♠ GF 4-5 majors

 

This covers every 54 hand without ambiguity

[apollo1201]

I've found that escaping NT with a 44 "garbage" is more useful with weak NTs, as others pointed out.

 

In an IMP context (with strong NT...), improving game investigation is more useful. So 54 majors inv (or even just 5 maj and irregular shapes) bid Stayman and correct 2D to 2M. If the auction goes 1NT-2C-2S-2NT, opener should remember to show a 3-card H suit if he wants to pursue. If the auction goes 2D-2M, opener can relay to see if his hand suits responder's expected singleton.

 

So to anwer OP's question: with your strong(ish) NT range and sophisticated developments you seem to have in place, I bet this should have been dealt with when you decided. In a more standard system, it probably makes less sense to try to escape unless you play a weak(ish) NT and lots of MP events. However, knowing majors length rather than 45 each way is probably a need to have.

[Zelandakh]

Puppet Stayman has its own version. With 5+ diamonds, and 2+ hearts and spades, you bid 2♣ and pass any response and you are guaranteed to play at least a 5-2 fit. Obviously this caters to a different type of signoff hand then regular Crawling Stayman but frequency wise it probably is even more common depending on the exact hand patterns used.

You are thinking of Exit Stayman, which does indeed have a Puppet equivalent. However, most puppet users treat the sequence 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♥ as constructive, if not forcing, so it is then not available for Crawling (aka Creeping) Stayman.

 

Note: Garbage Stayman is another name for Exit Stayman but is often used for both conventions almost interchangeably and therefore the Exit Stayman description is clearer.

 

 

Is crawling Stayman worth the occasional disaster when 1N opener is 2-2 in the majors?

A common trick is to specific that one of the majors has to be at least 5 cards long meaning that Opener can always give preference to that suit with an equal length and will have a reasonable landing place with 2-2 in the majors.

[Jinksy]

A common trick is to specific that one of the majors has to be at least 5 cards long meaning that Opener can always give preference to that suit with an equal length and will have a reasonable landing place with 2-2 in the majors.

 

I think if you played it this way you'd be giving up a large part of the gain of the system, which is being able to find 4-4 major fits whenever you have 4-4 in the majors. Sabotaging that for a once-in-a-blue-moon save from playing in a 4-2 fit at the two level seems far too timid.

[Zelandakh]

I think if you played it this way you'd be giving up a large part of the gain of the system, which is being able to find 4-4 major fits whenever you have 4-4 in the majors. Sabotaging that for a once-in-a-blue-moon save from playing in a 4-2 fit at the two level seems far too timid.

The primary benefit is playing in the 8 card fit in the very common case of 5-4 opposite 3-3. This is actually the version of the convention that is generally recommended by the more experienced BBFers in threads on the subject.

[johnu]

You are thinking of Exit Stayman, which does indeed have a Puppet equivalent. However, most puppet users treat the sequence 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♥ as constructive, if not forcing, so it is then not available for Crawling (aka Creeping) Stayman.

 

Standard treatment is that a 2♥ rebid shows 4 spades, and 2♠ shows 4 hearts. Both are invitational+.

[johnu]

A common trick is to specific that one of the majors has to be at least 5 cards long meaning that Opener can always give preference to that suit with an equal length and will have a reasonable landing place with 2-2 in the majors.

 

Maybe common where you play, but IIRC, never encountered by me in the US.

[Jinksy]

The primary benefit is playing in the 8 card fit in the very common case of 5-4 opposite 3-3. This is actually the version of the convention that is generally recommended by the more experienced BBFers in threads on the subject.

 

I don't agree with them. This is one of the things I've spent the most time testing in bidding rooms, and IMO 5-3s aren't that big a deal, either in frequency or in increased expectation when they come up. More often than not getting into 4-3s is worth a trick more than NT, and 4-4s are huge. Restricting yourself to (a specific ordering of) 5-4 hands will drastically reduce the frequency with which you can bid Stayman, and I would guess you gain about 1/2 an IMP in expectation every time you bid it.

 

Andrew Robson seemed to advocate this view as well in a recent EBU mag, though I don't think he specifically commented

[jallerton]

I don't agree with them. This is one of the things I've spent the most time testing in bidding rooms, and IMO 5-3s aren't that big a deal, either in frequency or in increased expectation when they come up. More often than not getting into 4-3s is worth a trick more than NT, and 4-4s are huge.

 

My experience in different. In general, I prefer to play my 8-card fits in a suit contract and stick to no-trumps when our best fit is 4-3.

[jallerton]

Jinksy: We're using a (14)15-17 NT. 5M332 is systematically opened 1NT if in range. If holding a five card major the range is usually 14-16 (we play that a rebid after 1M-1NT promise an unbalanced hand, and with 17 we usually open Swedish 1♣ (12-14 NT or 17+). We also treat 4-4-1-4 as balanced, so these open 1NT if in range. We play matchpoints (in a pretty weak field) much more frequently, but overall the system is tailored towards IMPs and that's what we enjoy more.

 

Zel: 1NT-2♦ is a transfer to heart, but may be invitational with 4 hearts (those hands doesn't bid stayman, unless 4-4 majors). 1NT-2♦; 2♥-2♠ is INV with 5♥ (2NT would invite with four) or GF with 5-5 majors. 1NT-2♣; 2♦-2♠ is a GF relay (shape ask).

 

Obviously, the whole 1NT structure is interlinked, but I don't like using bids as relays when there is a natural and relatively frequent use for the bid. Both to play (based on 5-4 in the majors) and invitational with 5 spades are sensible natural meanings. After a 1NT opening it's often better for Responder to describe his or her own shape rather than ask on FG hands; the balanced hand is better placed to judge whether or not the honour structure fits well.

[Jinksy]

My experience in different. In general, I prefer to play my 8-card fits in a suit contract and stick to no-trumps when our best fit is 4-3.

 

I don't think I particularly disagree - in practice, Moyesians seem harder to play (and/or easier to defend) than 1N. So I suspect playing in them in practice roughly breaks even (at least at IMPs - I would expect to show a slight profit from the Moyesians at MPs). But 4-4s are huge, and all things being equal I would much rather miss the occasional 5-3 if it meant finding more of them (and occasionally we'll find a 5-4 fit when opener shows up with a 5-card major, though that's probably too rare to be much of a factor).

 

Also because we play a weak NT, getting doubled is a factor, and many people still don't play a double of Stayman as values, so it's useful against such pairs to lower the risk by bidding it more often.

[jallerton]

To profit from playing 2 of a major suit compared with 1NT you need to be making an extra trick in the suit contract (whether the contract makes or not). Yes a 4-4 fit will normally provide that extra trick but surely that is not the case with 4-3s with no outside shortage in the 3-card trump holding: you are quite right that 1NT contracts are easier to play than defend and on average tend to make more tricks than double dummy analysis would suggest. In essence, using Stayman on 4432 hands is a gamble than partner holds a 4-card major (approx. a 50% chance I believe, depending on 1NT opening style) when you will usually, but not always, gain by finding your 4-4 fit.

[Zelandakh]

Standard treatment is that a 2♥ rebid shows 4 spades, and 2♠ shows 4 hearts. Both are invitational+.

2♠ showing 4+ hearts and INV+ values is also what I play but using 2♥ to promise 4 spades is inefficient as there is more bidding space available here. I use it to ask for a 4 card suit but it also comfortably covers invites to 3NT that are not interested in a heart fit and Baron hands looking for a minor suit slam.

 

 

To profit from playing 2 of a major suit compared with 1NT you need to be making an extra trick in the suit contract (whether the contract makes or not). Yes a 4-4 fit will normally provide that extra trick but surely that is not the case with 4-3s with no outside shortage in the 3-card trump holding: you are quite right that 1NT contracts are easier to play than defend and on average tend to make more tricks than double dummy analysis would suggest. In essence, using Stayman on 4432 hands is a gamble than partner holds a 4-card major (approx. a 50% chance I believe, depending on 1NT opening style) when you will usually, but not always, gain by finding your 4-4 fit.

There is a third option on 4432 hands, namely using Stayman and passing any response. That will typically gain if Opener has a 4 card major or 5 card diamond suit and lose big if partner has 3334 or 5 clubs. And in the 3325 case, you might need an understanding partner (or team mates) to explain why you are playing in your 5 card fit!

[jallerton]

There is a third option on 4432 hands, namely using Stayman and passing any response. That will typically gain if Opener has a 4 card major or 5 card diamond suit and lose big if partner has 3334 or 5 clubs. And in the 3325 case, you might need an understanding partner (or team mates) to explain why you are playing in your 5 card fit!

 

Yes, that's a reasonable option, especially with 4=4=3=2 in that order. If 4=4=2=3, the chance of 2♦ being a sensible spot is much lower. It's probably also more attractive at matchpoints, when the frequency of the gains is more important than the severity of the stupidity of the contract you end up in when partner doesn't make the hoped-for response.

[Jinksy]

A common trick is to specific that one of the majors has to be at least 5 cards long meaning that Opener can always give preference to that suit with an equal length and will have a reasonable landing place with 2-2 in the majors.

 

Btw, it seems as though you can get the same benefit from just stating that if you bid Stayman (then 2♥) on 5-4 in the majors, it will always be with a particular 5-card suit. P will then virtually always pass/correct to that suit with equal length in the majors, and the only real downside is you'll occasionally play in your Moyesian rather than a 5-2.