Math Education, elementary

[onoway]

Two Ted talks that pretty much say what I think

and

 

[Kaitlyn S]

I don't normally swear, but this made me feel like trotting some out - specifically whisky tango foxtrot! They're "allowed" to YELL at a CHILD? And they DO? I have no other response to this except that perhaps your friends should consider other professions that don't ever involve being around others.

No, as a practical matter, most if my acquaintances realize that yelling will do little good. And many of them are considering other careers, not because they suck at teaching, but because they aren't given the opportunity to teach. Almost to a person, they tell me that their attempts to get children to behave are answered with "Make me" or "Kiss my a**", and the loud talking or spit wads or fighting conitinues.

 

My guess is that your students are much better behaved because the teachers that taught them before you got the did an excellent job if not letting bad habits take root, where I'm not sure that is common. Please realize that I am not taking away from your successes as a teacher; it sounds like you do an excellent job. However, one of my acquaintances had the problems I described, and decided teaching was no longer a rewarding career. She took up teaching a certain skill set to adults and is considered one of the top in her profession in the country. So I believe she was also an excellent teacher, but when she taught junior high school, the children that she had to deal with couldn't have been handled by anybody, simply because the people that had those children in previous years gave up on the children too soon and made the children permanently unmanageable by anything short of a military type school that is allowed to use tactics far more onerous than yelling.

 

I am not trying to sound racist here, but in many cases, I am talking about inner city public schools.

[Winstonm]

No, as a practical matter, most if my acquaintances realize that yelling will do little good. And many of them are considering other careers, not because they suck at teaching, but because they aren't given the opportunity to teach. Almost to a person, they tell me that their attempts to get children to behave are answered with "Make me" or "Kiss my a**", and the loud talking or spit wads or fighting conitinues.

 

My guess is that your students are much better behaved because the teachers that taught them before you got the did an excellent job if not letting bad habits take root, where I'm not sure that is common. Please realize that I am not taking away from your successes as a teacher; it sounds like you do an excellent job. However, one of my acquaintances had the problems I described, and decided teaching was no longer a rewarding career. She took up teaching a certain skill set to adults and is considered one of the top in her profession in the country. So I believe she was also an excellent teacher, but when she taught junior high school, the children that she had to deal with couldn't have been handled by anybody, simply because the people that had those children in previous years gave up on the children too soon and made the children permanently unmanageable by anything short of a military type school that is allowed to use tactics far more onerous than yelling.

 

I am not trying to sound racist here, but in many cases, I am talking about inner city public schools.

 

The easiest way to sound racist is to say, "I am not trying to sound racist here, BUT...." I am certain you do not consider yourself racist - but you are when you suggest that inner city school problems are race-based.

[Kaitlyn S]

Barry, I wasn't the one who started throwing around expressions like Libtards

 

If you are going to pretend to be a moderator please pay attention to the threads...

Indeed, the one who used the term was me. And I stated it only because I assume that you, like every other liberal, has been referred to by that term by many conservatives, probably to your face but definitely behind your back. It's a dismissive term stating that the conservative is not going to listen to your position, but assume you are just being stupid or misinformed. And you, being used to that treatment, are not going to waste your time with people that aren't going to consider your opinion.

 

I stated that I was not in that category. If you write something that you think makes sense, I'm going to consider it. In using that term that is offensive to you, I tried to make the point that I expected you to expect me to ignore your argument because that is what most conservative posters do, and I wanted to make if clear that this is not my method of operation.

[onoway]

Kaitlyn some people may be excellent teacher with a specific sort of student, that doesn't make them automatically good teachers in a general sense. An excellent teacher, which I would certainly assume for example Elaina is judging from her posts, is capable of adapting techniques to the students, rather than needing the student to respond to whatever approach the teacher is comfortable with. I doubt whether ANY excellent teacher had to find out the hard way that yelling doesn't work.

 

Most certainly there are many many authoritarian minded people trying to teach and most of them, unless blessed with an unusual set of characteristics such as imagination and humor to go with their authoritarian style, are going to run into a great deal of trouble with kids who are not doing well in school. That is not even remotely the way to reach them and most excellent teachers, with apologies to your friend, would intuitively understand that.

 

Arthur C Clarke supposedly said, any teacher who can be replaced by a computer, ought to be. I think that probably about half, maybe more, fall into that category, no matter how wonderful their intentions. I consider kids to be fortunate if they run across just one truly excellent teacher throughout their school life.

 

As far as inner city kids and schools are concerned, google Steven Ritz Ted talk on growing Green in the south Bronx. He talks about working with precisely the kids you dismiss in the inner cities, the real down and outer areas. He is an example of an excellent teacher. It was interesting to me that one of his points was that part of the success was getting out of the way of the kids teaching and helping each other, the teacher being mostly an enabler if you will. A vivid example of how well the principles work of the first TED talk linked to above.

 

There are others doing as well with these groups of kids but they are largely unsung heroes. Ritz is looking to gain wider support for something that works on many many levels past just the classroom. And incidentally, to bring to the world understanding that these kids that many, including you it would seem, would discard as unreachable, are not unreachable at all.

[Zelandakh]

And I stated it only because I assume that you, like every other liberal, has been referred to by that term by many conservatives, probably to your face but definitely behind your back.

As a Liberal, I can assure you that I have never heard the expression before this thread at all, let alone had it aimed at me personally.

 

 

Kaitlyn some people may be excellent teacher with a specific sort of student, that doesn't make them automatically good teachers in a general sense.

Absolutely! I used to do some tutoring work and am, I believe, fairly good in this context. I am reasonably confident that I would not make a good teacher for a full class. The skills required for teaching adults that have paid to attend a course are different from those required for primary school children that would in some cases rather be anywhere else than in a maths classroom.

[kenberg]

Indeed, the one who used the term was me. And I stated it only because I assume that you, like every other liberal, has been referred to by that term by many conservatives, probably to your face but definitely behind your back. It's a dismissive term stating that the conservative is not going to listen to your position, but assume you are just being stupid or misinformed. And you, being used to that treatment, are not going to waste your time with people that aren't going to consider your opinion.

 

I stated that I was not in that category. If you write something that you think makes sense, I'm going to consider it. In using that term that is offensive to you, I tried to make the point that I expected you to expect me to ignore your argument because that is what most conservative posters do, and I wanted to make if clear that this is not my method of operation.

 

When I see a term such as lbtard my eyes just sort of glaze over. Does this mean that the writer using "libtard" is a "contard"?

 

I mentioned above that Becky was having a casual conversation with someone and mentioned Halloween. The woman replied that they are Christian and don't do such things. Logically speaking, this is different from saying libtard. Emotionally, it produces the same reaction, at least with me. The reaction? "Oh, I just remembered, I have to leave now." I have friends who are more conservative than I am, some of them a good deal more conservative. I have friends that are more liberal than I am, some of them a good deal more liberal. We don't use such names for each other. And for that matter, I reject the idea that there is this one dimensional scale from conservative to liberal where we can each be located. If people make up ridiculous names to call me, to my face or behind my back, who cares which, surely that says more about them than it does about me.

[PassedOut]

Indeed, the one who used the term was me. And I stated it only because I assume that you, like every other liberal, has been referred to by that term by many conservatives, probably to your face but definitely behind your back.

I'm a conservative, and I've never encountered the term "libtard" before, let alone used it.

[barmar]

I'm a conservative, and I've never encountered the term "libtard" before, let alone used it.

It sounds like a word that an ultra-right like Rush Limbaugh would use on a regular basis. Are you conservative enough to listen to those people?

[barmar]

Barry, I wasn't the one who started throwing around expressions like Libtards

 

If you are going to pretend to be a moderator please pay attention to the threads...

Maybe I missed it, but I thought that was used to refer to people in general, not aimed at a specific individual. Plus, I consider "idiot" to be more offensive than a snarky portmanteau like "libtard".

[PassedOut]

It sounds like a word that an ultra-right like Rush Limbaugh would use on a regular basis. Are you conservative enough to listen to those people?

I don't have time to listen to drug-addled lunatics.

[Elianna]

No, as a practical matter, most if my acquaintances realize that yelling will do little good. And many of them are considering other careers, not because they suck at teaching, but because they aren't given the opportunity to teach. Almost to a person, they tell me that their attempts to get children to behave are answered with "Make me" or "Kiss my a**", and the loud talking or spit wads or fighting conitinues.

 

...

 

I am not trying to sound racist here, but in many cases, I am talking about inner city public schools.

 

So am I. I didn't add this because I didn't consider it relevant, but I teach in what would be considered an "inner city school". My school is located at the intersection of three gangs who are busy fighting about that territory. Our school is 99% children of color. We have 4 Asian kids, 10 African-American kids, 330 Latino kids and 2 White kids.

 

You may not be trying to sound racist, but it sure sounds like you are succeeding.

 

And my guess is that your friends may have also been succeeding. Kids are smart and pick up on that.

 

I've had kids say rude things to me before, they don't come in as perfect little angels. The point is to not treat them as "others" or incapable of controlling themselves, but to show that you believe in them, and that they are capable of both learning and behaving.

[barmar]

I don't have time to listen to drug-addled lunatics.

Yet you come here. :)

[USViking]

I'll repeat: While I teach at a charter, it is not a wealthy public school. 85% (down from 90%) of our students are on Free or Reduced Lunch. The "rich kid" at school had a family income of 60,000 which may seem high for US standards

 

For your information median US household income is $55775 (93% of $60000), and in places where it is much less than San Francisco's $84160, housing is also much less.

 

For example, the median family income NC, my home state, is $47830 (57% of San Francisco's ), BUT in my home town Greensboro, the 3rd largest city in the state, I pay $503 monthly for a one bedroom apartment, and Google informs me that the average such accommodation in SF is $3382- 672% more.

 

Otherwise necessities such as food and energy appear to be about 10-20% less here. Bread is usually under $3.00 per loaf, milk $2.70 per gallon, a whole cooked chicken $6.97, cheapest gas $1.899-2.299 so far this year ($2.159 this week).

 

Free school lunch is available for students from families of four earning less than $31590, 130% of the Federal Poverty level. In the interest of transparency I should also note that student school meal income eligibility requirements are exactly the same for SF and Greensboro. However, this may be significantly or fully mitigated for NC students in general by a supplemental program. Although I have not been able to pin down full details, in Guilford County NC this program provides 28,000 students at 58 schools with free breakfast and lunch, regardless of whether they would otherwise qualify for free or reduced-price meals. (Greensboro is in Guilford County. City and county schools are separately administered, and I do not know if the city is also taking part in the program)

[blackshoe]

And for that matter, I reject the idea that there is this one dimensional scale from conservative to liberal where we can each be located.

Jerry Pournelle, among others, postulated (in his 1963 Ph.D. dissertation) a two dimensional political space. In fact, I remember him later saying, in discussions on the subject, that an accurate description of political "space" would require many more than two dimensions.

[Kaitlyn S]

As a Liberal, I can assure you that I have never heard the expression before this thread at all, let alone had it aimed at me personally.

Interesting. In another forum, almost all of its conservatives have used it after being attacked. I have also used it, but only to say that I didn't think the term was appropriate. The liberals have similar terms of endearment for us, most are nasty synonyms of "crazy", "delusional", or "conspiracy theorists". When I joined, I tried to enhance an aura of mutual respect with little success except that I don't automatically get dismissed like most of the other conservatives do.

 

When checking other online sources, I have seen the term used often. AFAIK, Rush, Hannity, etc. have not used it.

[Kaitlyn S]

I've had kids say rude things to me before, they don't come in as perfect little angels. The point is to not treat them as "others" or incapable of controlling themselves, but to show that you believe in them, and that they are capable of both learning and behaving.

You may not think so, but from where I sit, it appears you are very talented and we'd be sure lot better off if most grade school teachers had your talent for dealing with and getting through to children. I've never taken an education course but I have never heard about any teachings of how to deal with the children to gain their respect. It would seem like a necessary skill but I expect most teachers aren't that good at it.

[onoway]

You may not think so, but from where I sit, it appears you are very talented and we'd be sure lot better off if most grade school teachers had your talent for dealing with and getting through to children. I've never taken an education course but I have never heard about any teachings of how to deal with the children to gain their respect. It would seem like a necessary skill but I expect most teachers aren't that good at it.

It comes from treating the kids with respect, ( which is NOT the same as being a walkover), actually holding the belief that they truly are capable of learning, (which involves expectations) and being both willing and able to try different approaches to help them meet those expectations.

 

Trying to fake that won't work, kids everywhere would pick it up very quickly, kids that come from difficult backgrounds where sometimes even survival requires reading the people around them accurately, would pick it up instantly. It isn't a technique.to be taught, it's an attitude coming out of an assumption. Respect is generally reciprocated..eventually. Of course kids test, it's what kids do.

[onoway]

When I was dealing with damaged kids, the acting out was almost always in context of feeling out of control, inadequate, of being unable to do whatever was being asked, or what they thought was going to be asked of them. It went away in almost direct correlation with their growing confidence in their ability to do whatever it was.Math and reading were of course the usual issues. These were kids in a residential treatment program, who had been tossed out of schools because of their disruptive behaviour. the goal was to get them allowed back in, with the necessary skills to be successful. To be fair, there was much more of a support system there than there is in a normal school, and all of the kids tested within average or better iq range. Still, a feeling of competence is often an amazingly effective moderator of behaviour. It was interesting to find out what the problems actually were since the kids all theoretically ought to have done fine. One had managed to get promoted as far as grade 5 without being able to read at all.

[Cyberyeti]

Interesting. In another forum, almost all of its conservatives have used it after being attacked. I have also used it, but only to say that I didn't think the term was appropriate. The liberals have similar terms of endearment for us, most are nasty synonyms of "crazy", "delusional", or "conspiracy theorists". When I joined, I tried to enhance an aura of mutual respect with little success except that I don't automatically get dismissed like most of the other conservatives do.

 

When checking other online sources, I have seen the term used often. AFAIK, Rush, Hannity, etc. have not used it.

 

I think it's very much an American word, not seen it used in the UK at all.

[hrothgar]

Interesting. In another forum, almost all of its conservatives have used it after being attacked. I have also used it, but only to say that I didn't think the term was appropriate. The liberals have similar terms of endearment for us, most are nasty synonyms of "crazy", "delusional", or "conspiracy theorists". When I joined, I tried to enhance an aura of mutual respect with little success except that I don't automatically get dismissed like most of the other conservatives do.

 

 

You don't establish an environment of "mutual respect" by posting

 

"My conservative friends all call you "libtards" but I'd never do any such thing."

You come across as someone who wants to insult people, but is too spineless to do so.

 

Sort of like when one says "I am not trying to sound racist here, but in many cases, I am talking about inner city public schools."

It makes you sound like a racist who doesn't have the courage of their convictions.

 

Just to clarify, I have now issue with you using language like "Libtard"

I like to know where people stand.

 

The only reason that I brought this up was to provide context to Barry when he gave me a warning about gratuitous insults...

 

<FWIW, if you want to establish an environment of mutual respect, it starts with well considered posts instead of your inane Gish Gallop>

[Vampyr]

You don't establish an environment of "mutual respect" by posting

...threats of rape. Honestly, you are one to talk!

[hrothgar]

...threats of rape. Honestly, you are one to talk!

 

When did I ever suggest that I respect you?

 

With this said and done, I have never made "rape threat" let alone directed one at you.

[onoway]

To get back to the question, ran across this today and thought it had some interesting points to make http://www.upworthy.com/this-researcher-asked-kids-whats-wrong-with-us-schools-here-are-their-ideas

[kenberg]

To get back to the question, ran across this today and thought it had some interesting points to make http://www.upworthy....are-their-ideas

 

Thanks. Of course I am always pleased to see that Minnesota kids are still above average. Eric from Minnesota seemed well above average.