Math Education, elementary

[billw55]

Regarding charter schools. Even when they are not selective at admission - either for academics or behavior - they still may not be representative of public school students at large. I have read pieces before about charters that are aggressive in removing kids with behavior problems from the school; I suspect that this alone could show up as a performance improvement over the general population. And even failing all that, applicants for a lottery admission still come from parents that care about their kids education, which can make a big difference. Short version, most charters have some selection bias at work.

[hrothgar]

Regarding charter schools. Even when they are not selective at admission - either for academics or behavior - they still may not be representative of public school students at large. I have read pieces before about charters that are aggressive in removing kids with behavior problems from the school; I suspect that this alone could show up as a performance improvement over the general population. And even failing all that, applicants for a lottery admission still come from parents that care about their kids education, which can make a big difference. Short version, most charters have some selection bias at work.

 

The paper in question was using the Massachusetts Charter school lottery to control for some of this.

 

MA doesn't have enough charter schools to admit every applicant

They assign folks based on a lottery

 

The comparisons that are being done are between students who applied to join a charter school and got a spot versus students who applied to join a charter school and did not get a spot

[kenberg]

Yes, this is a strong part of the research. The random selection was from those who had applied. So it becomes possible to compare the group "applied and randomly selected" with the group "applied and randomly not selected". Clearly this helps. I am still concerned. Charter schools are a political issue and, this year, a ballot issue in Mass. I try to be neither cynical nor naive. I suppose the vote in Mass is tomorrow, but I hope this gets ongoing review and discussion.

[barmar]

John Oliver did a scathing report on charters schools a couple of months ago. It was basically about the way that many of them have been poorly managed, and that the free market is not the right way to do public education (similar to arguments against privatization of prisons, which gives incentives to increasing prison population).

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2016/08/30/john-oliver-theyre-after-you-charter-school-backers-sponsor-100000-anti-oliver-video-contest/

 

Despite that, I voted for more charter schools here in MA. It seems like if they're done right, they can be a big benefit.

[mike777]

John Oliver did a scathing report on charters schools a couple of months ago. It was basically about the way that many of them have been poorly managed, and that the free market is not the right way to do public education (similar to arguments against privatization of prisons, which gives incentives to increasing prison population).

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2016/08/30/john-oliver-theyre-after-you-charter-school-backers-sponsor-100000-anti-oliver-video-contest/

 

Despite that, I voted for more charter schools here in MA. It seems like if they're done right, they can be a big benefit.

 

 

My take on Charter schools is they offer the consumer more choices, more choices is a good thing. They present competition to non charter schools of all types, public and private. Competition is a good thing.

 

Unlike your local public school, charter schools are easier much easier to destroy and replace with something or ten somethings if they fail, that is a good thing. Trying to destroy and replace your local public school is very difficult.

 

 

Barmar as to your point about using incentives to increase populations, incentives can work and often work. Thus the debate about free college. If we want more students in schools or more crooks in prisons, incentives may work.

[kenberg]

John Oliver did a scathing report on charters schools a couple of months ago. It was basically about the way that many of them have been poorly managed, and that the free market is not the right way to do public education (similar to arguments against privatization of prisons, which gives incentives to increasing prison population).

 

https://www.washingt...-video-contest/

 

Despite that, I voted for more charter schools here in MA. It seems like if they're done right, they can be a big benefit.

 

I would probably vote the same way. I find the comparison with prisons amusing. Many students would agree, I am sure.

[matmat]

This thread is a fascinating read. Math is hard.

[Elianna]

This thread is a fascinating read. Math is hard.

 

Said the Physicist. Did I tell you I'm teaching Physics again?

[kenberg]

This thread is a fascinating read. Math is hard.

 

Back when Mattel was getting so much heat for this utterance by their doll, I thought of starting a "Barbie tells it like it is" movement.

[kenberg]

Said the Physicist. Did I tell you I'm teaching Physics again?

 

A story from my youth illustrates the problems teachers have. I was going to put it up before but I must have thought better of it. The cure has worn off.

 

Billy was a friend in high school. We were not close, but I had a car, he had a car, and he would come over and we would work on cars. Someone told him Physics has something to do with cars so he signed up for the Physics class. So did I, but I was an avid reader of Scientific American, interested in neutrinos, positrons, all that jazz. I was 15, he was 15 or 16. Anyway, Billy would sit in class, sprawled out (he was large) at his desk, and every so often interrupt with "What does this have to do with cars?". I think he switched out of Physics, or the teacher switched him, after not long. He graduated from high school, I think. I lost touch with him but I heard he died in a car accident while street racing.

 

There might not be any real point to all of this except, perhaps, that teachers have challenges. If there was any way to to get Billy interested in Physics I don't know what it was. Neutrino detection (1956, I remember the excitement but I had to check the date) was still in the future for my 1954 class, but he was not interested in such things. Elapsed time for the quarter mile, yes. Neutrinos, no.

 

Good luck to you and the quarks.

[barmar]

Barmar as to your point about using incentives to increase populations, incentives can work and often work. Thus the debate about free college. If we want more students in schools or more crooks in prisons, incentives may work.

But they can also have negative consequences. Commercial prisons are also rewarded when there are more non-crooks (e.g. non-violent drug offenders) in prison, or when they stay longer than necessary. So they don't have an incentive to foster an environment where people will be released for good behavior.

 

The point is that the incentives are not necessarily consistent with the societal goals of these institutions.

[mike777]

But they can also have negative consequences. Commercial prisons are also rewarded when there are more non-crooks (e.g. non-violent drug offenders) in prison, or when they stay longer than necessary. So they don't have an incentive to foster an environment where people will be released for good behavior.

 

The point is that the incentives are not necessarily consistent with the societal goals of these institutions.

 

 

okj ok ok

 

 

 

We agree that incentives often work to achieve stated goals but not always. We agree that goals change or are confusing over time.

 

It looks like for this thread the goal was and is to increase the population of whatever.

[mike777]

This thread is a fascinating read. Math is hard.

 

 

Wow what a lazy, very lazy excuse.

 

 

You are paid money ...lots and lots of money to make math easier.....

 

I go to my 9th grade math class.

 

 

My teacher made it silly hard.....I WAS CONFUSED.

 

 

i REMEMER AT SOME POINT i TOLD HIM IT HE MAKES MATH TOO HARD TO CONFUSING....AT SOME POINT i TOOK OVER...i SAW THIS PROBLEM OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

 

sEE kENBERG WHO TEACHES WONDERFUL