Overloading the queen ask

[antonylee]

One RKC auction that I just realized wasn't defined in my notes is blackwood, followed by a queen ask by an asker who is looking at the queen and then bidding 5N or at the 6-level over partner's known signoff.

 

I play a fairly standard structure where a direct 5N over RKC asks for specific kings and 6-level bids ask for third round control. It seems natural that going through a "useless" queen-ask first should show some kind of hand where the grand cannnot be found via knowledge of specific kings or of third round control in a specific suit, so perhaps the slow 5N should be some general invite. Thoughts (also about 6-level bids)?

[Kungsgeten]

One idea could be to use it to offer a choice of strains, and not as a grand slam tool. This could be useful in situations where bidding space has been scarce:

 

2NT-3H; [22-24 NT - 5+ spades]

3S-4D; [3+ spades - Short diamonds]

4S-4NT; [short diamonds made hand worse - RKC]

5C-5D; [0 or 3 - Queen Ask]

5S-? [No queen]

 

Now perhaps the following could work?

 

5NT = Offers to play 6NT or 6S.

6C = Offers to play 6C or 6S. Probably 5-5.

6D = No idea since we're short in diamonds.

6H = Offers to play 6H or 6S. Probably 5-5.

[Fluffy]

I proposed specific queens several years ago on this forums, but people weren't very interested on the idea. Some people were wary about responder showing queen with extra trumps

[nullve]

A discussion last year: http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/41428-rkc-question-new-suit-after-queen-denial

 

My idea was essentially

 

1) that if spades are agreed so that

 

♠Q = c1,c2,c3,...

 

is the spiral chain, then it makes sense to play

 

...4N(RKC(♠))-5♣(0/3 KC); ?:

 

5♦ = c1 ask (= trump Q ask)

...5♥ = no c1

......5♠ = to play

......5N = c3 ask

......6♣ = c5 ask

......6♦ = c7 ask (not sure it will ever come up)

......(...)

...(...)

5♥ = c2 ask

5♠ = to play

5N = c4 ask

6♣ = c6 ask (not sure it will ever come up)

(...)

 

...4N(RKC(♠))-5♦(1/4 KC); ?:

 

5♥ = c1 ask (= trump Q ask)

...5♠ = no c1

......(...)

......5N = c3 ask

......6♣ = c5 ask

......6♦ = c7 ask (not sure it will ever come up)

......(...)

...(...)

5♠ = to play

5N = c2 ask

6♣ = c4 ask

6♦ = c6 ask (not sure it will ever come up)

(...)

 

2) to make the obvious adjustments to 1) when other suits are agreed.

[fromageGB]

I proposed specific queens several years ago on this forums, but people weren't very interested on the idea. Some people were wary about responder showing queen with extra trumps

This seems like a good idea to me. Over an ace response, a simple king ask asks for specific kings, and a queen ask denied followed by the king asking bid is a specific queen ask - to be treated exactly the same way as kings. I can't see a problem yet. Responder "showing the Q" with long trumps and no queens simply denies you the opportunity to ask for specific queens in that general way. You can still make a specific suit ask (of whatever style you play) if you wish.

 

If you adopted this, then in the case where asker has the trump Q, he has two ways of investigating a specific side suit. He can use this delayed generic queen ask to discover a Q, but an immediate bid of the side suit can ask for something else, such as perhaps a KQ, or a specific length.

[Jinksy]

I proposed specific queens several years ago on this forums, but people weren't very interested on the idea. Some people were wary about responder showing queen with extra trumps

 

One way to avoid that problem would be to have the slow sequence ask about (possibly among other things) extra trumps.

[antonylee]

Specifically asking for KQ seems to be a rather small target. We agreed with my partner to follow Kungsgeten choice-of-strains suggestion, which has the benefit of being 1) natural (always good for rare auctions...) and 2) certainly useful in some cases :-)

[awm]

One way to deal with the problem of partner showing the queen when holding extra trumps might be to invert the asking bids. For example if spades are trump:

 

4NT - 5♦

.. 5♥ = ask for queen, or the start of asking specific kings

.... 5♠ = no queen, now 5NT shows the queen and asks specific kings

.... 5NT+ = shows queen (or extra trumps), and specific king(s)

.. 5NT = ask for something else (say side queens?)

[cherdano]

We play that asking for the Queen, then going on with 5nt shows a minimal grand try (all keys, but otherwise no extras). Direct king asks imply a bit more.

This seems safe - eg if partner jumps to 6 you are happy to pass.

[Zelandakh]

Where you have the situation that the fit is only known to be 8 cards, this sequence can be used to look for a 10 card fit where both partners have an extra trump but neither has 2 extra. In situations with a known 9 card fit it is more difficult to come up with a satisfactory meaning. Fluffy's idea is probably as good as any. This is something of a repeating issue on BBF and we have had several threads about it in the last years.