ATB missing 6-2 major fit

[Fluffy]

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5♦ made so it was not a disaster, but I think we should had found the major fit.

[Tramticket]

Maybe west could cue-bid 4♣ over 3♠, suggesting a choice of places to play? West is quite good in context.

[Jinksy]

IMO west should have bid hearts at either his second or third call, depending on your X-then-bid style. What's the point of 4♦? It forces you to the four level anyway, and you wouldn't be doing it without the KH as insurance, so why not let P in on the secret?

[MrAce]

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5♦ made so it was not a disaster, but I think we should had found the major fit.

 

To be honest, I would never bid 5♦ with East hand. I already told my story. I doubled then bid a new suit, pd still passing but I bid 3♦. No way I am lifting 4♦ to 5 in case pd did not see my previous actions.

West acted pessimistic at least 2 times. If you guys are overcalling up to 17 hcp, as most people do, DBL and then 1♥ shows 18+. West had an easy 1 NT over 1♠. He knows your side has 23+ hcp.

After passing 1♠ and pd still bidding 3♦, I think he should do much better than just 4♦, which is competitive. Depending on your style he needed to DBL 3♠ or bid 4♥.

As West I'd DBL 3♠ (not penalty)

 

What is the scoring by the way? MP? IMP?

[billw55]

Apparently the meaning of x-then-1♥ was not well understood. Was the agreement murky, or did west just not get the message?

[alok c]

What 2♥ by East would have shown instead of 1♥?After ♦ bidding by West,East can reasonably expect for 4♥ play even with doubleton ♥honours with West.

[MrAce]

What 2♥ by East would have shown instead of 1♥?After ♦ bidding by West,East can reasonably expect for 4♥ play even with doubleton ♥honours with West.

 

 

2♥ would set the trump.

[Fluffy]

I wouldn't say 2♥ stablishes trumps unequivocally, but it certainly is not bid on a hand that plays 2 tricks better in diamonds opposite singleton.

[ggwhiz]

Was the agreement murky, or did west just not get the message?

 

I think west got the message, showing a pulse by bidding 4♦. Over that east can safely bid 4♥ to show the 6th piece and instead of committing to 5♦ west will choose the game.

[MrAce]

I think west got the message, showing a pulse by bidding 4♦. Over that east can safely bid 4♥ to show the 6th piece and instead of committing to 5♦ west will choose the game.

 

 

 

And whose fault would it be, if East did not have 6th ♥?

 

Kx

AQJxx

KQxx

Ax

 

And why do you think 4♦ is some sort of bid that should make East bid again, after all he already done? Would you not compete 4♦ with W hand after all the noise pd made, with;

 

xx

xx

Jxxxx

Jxxx

 

where both 3♠ and 4♦ makes?

[wank]

west can introduce hearts over 3D - he's already denied 3 - and it would leave open the prospect of 3NT.

 

nevermind i didn't see the 3S bid. then i suppose he can bid 4C to offer a choice.

[aguahombre]

I think he should do much better than just 4♦, which is competitive. Depending on your style he needed to DBL 3♠ or bid 4♥.

As West I'd DBL 3♠ (not penalty)

Yes West should do better. At the point in the auction where South bid 3♠, West should know:

 

1) game in a red suit is a good bet.

2) East might have 5 hearts or might have six.

 

West can bid 4♥ as choice of games. If Double is 'not penalty', then it is non-descript and IMO not helpful.

After 4♥ by West, here is what East knows:

 

1) West has about the playing strength he actually has.

2) West has only two hearts, lest he would have bid 2♥ rather than pass, when he had the chance. 4 points would be plenty to do that.

 

This leaves East a simple task of counting the number of hearts in his hand and passing 4♥.

[mycroft]

If I didn't bid 2♥ (which I can see not doing with just Kx), I'm definitely bidding 4♥ rather than 4♦. What's the dime to stop on in 4♦? We know we have a diamond fit, *I* know we (should) have a heart fit, give partner the choice. So I can't play 4♦ if 4♥ is wrong - again, that won't be the last dime I haven't been able to stop on.

[gszes]

I think west got the message, showing a pulse by bidding 4♦. Over that east can safely bid 4♥ to show the 6th piece and instead of committing to 5♦ west will choose the game.

Agree almost completely it is just plain IMPOSSIBLE for west to have 3 hearts and (not raise 1h to 2h and later bid 4d). That means the 4h bid (don't try to convince me 4h is not offering a place to play) shows a good enough heart suit to play opposite xx or a stiff honor. It is a no risk bid on the way to 5d to possibly the last makeable spot.

[gszes]

I think west got the message, showing a pulse by bidding 4♦. Over that east can safely bid 4♥ to show the 6th piece and instead of committing to 5♦ west will choose the game.

Agree almost completely it is just plain IMPOSSIBLE for west to have 3 hearts and (not raise 1h to 2h and later bid 4d). That means the 4h bid (don't try to convince me 4h is not offering a place to play) shows a good enough heart suit to play opposite xx or a stiff honor. It is a no risk bid on the way to 5d to possibly the last makeable spot.

[miamijd]

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5♦ made so it was not a disaster, but I think we should had found the major fit.

 

As a couple others have mentioned, West should bid 4H over 3S, not 4D.

 

No, West's pass after 1S did not show 2 or fewer hearts. He could easily have 3 hearts with a 1 count. But if West has enough to bid 4D, then with 3H, he probably would raise 1H to 2H. Moreover, Kx isn't so bad even opposite a decent five-card suit.

[GrahamJson]

It seems to me that east is more to blame here. I would have bid 2H rather than 1H initially. However if the auction went as it did east should certainty bid 4H rather than 5D. I'm not convinced that west should have bid 4H rather than 4D. At that point he is looking to win the part score so 4D looks safer.

[aawk]

If east bid 4♥ instead of 5♦ it shows a strong (started with a double then introduce a new suit shows 16+ HCP) x64x pattern and let partner decide to pass or bid 5♦.

[MrAce]

It seems to me that east is more to blame here. I would have bid 2H rather than 1H initially. However if the auction went as it did east should certainty bid 4H rather than 5D. I'm not convinced that west should have bid 4H rather than 4D. At that point he is looking to win the part score so 4D looks safer.

 

You are not convinced that W should bid 4♥ rather than 4♦.

But you want East, to bid forever.

Look at the actions he took so far. DBL and then bid a new suit, which is pretty much 18+, seeing his pd still pass he then bid 3♦.

 

I am sure you all would blame E for keep on bidding after he already told his story if he bid 4♥ and found W with

 

Jxx

xx

Jxxxx

xxx

 

 

losing 1♦+2♦ruff+1♠+2♥. -800 or -300 out of nowhere instead of +130 !! ATB comments would be like " Did E know there are also green cards in the box?" http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif

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Cheers!

[rhm]

To be honest, I would never bid 5♦ with East hand. I already told my story. I doubled then bid a new suit, pd still passing but I bid 3♦. No way I am lifting 4♦ to 5 in case pd did not see my previous actions.

West acted pessimistic at least 2 times. If you guys are overcalling up to 17 hcp, as most people do, DBL and then 1♥ shows 18+. West had an easy 1 NT over 1♠. He knows your side has 23+ hcp.

After passing 1♠ and pd still bidding 3♦, I think he should do much better than just 4♦, which is competitive. Depending on your style he needed to DBL 3♠ or bid 4♥.

As West I'd DBL 3♠ (not penalty)

 

What is the scoring by the way? MP? IMP?

 

Changing the West hand slightly

 

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As East I would want to be in a diamond game opposite such meager values, though of course it is anything but cold. .

East does not just have 18 HCP. He does have on top a 6421 distribution with a fit for partner and West bidding 4♦ says he can not be totally broke.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[MrAce]

Changing the West hand slightly

 

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As East I would want to be in a diamond game opposite such meager values, though of course it is anything but cold. .

East does not just have 18 HCP. He does have on top a 6421 distribution with a fit for partner and West bidding 4♦ says he can not be totally broke.

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

West is very unlikely to have the hand you suggest instead of holding Jxx xx Jxxxx xxx.

With the hand you suggest, as West, I would be thrilled to stay in defense vs 3♠ considering that I am on lead. That is why I asked the scoring. I can even double 3♠ at MP if it meant penalty, but I don't think it is.

[Caitlynne]

If you are going to start with a Double over 1C, planning to show a strong hand with long hearts (a reasonable decision that is not without risk - partner might jump to 4S on you!), then finish the plan but jumping to 2H. 1H does NOT show a strong hand with a 6 card suit; it suggests 5. After a jump to 2H, partner would/should be very impressed by his Kx in hearts.

[rhm]

What 2♥ by East would have shown instead of 1♥?After ♦ bidding by West,East can reasonably expect for 4♥ play even with doubleton ♥honours with West.

2♥ would set the trump.

Obviously a matter of agreement. I am a fan of ELC, but for me 2♥ would show the actual East hand even without ELC.

Setting hearts I would have to jump to 3♥

With even stronger hands you cuebid opponents suit first.

I do not know what people do with say solid opening bid values and 4♠-5♥-2♦-2♣ and dispersed honors.

I would certainly double and correct a reply of 1♦ to 1♥

 

Rainer Herrmann

[aguahombre]

Obviously a matter of agreement. I am a fan of ELC, but for me 2♥ would show the actual East hand even without ELC.

Setting hearts I would have to jump to 3♥

With even stronger hands you cuebid opponents suit first.

I do not know what people do with say solid opening bid values and 4♠-5♥-2♦-2♣ and dispersed honors.

I would certainly double and correct a reply of 1♦ to 1♥

 

Rainer Herrmann

Respectfully disagree with everything here, and commend East for not over-emphasizing his nice-but-mediocre six card heart suit.

While it is true that the 1♥ rebid did not show more than 5 hearts, it is not true that it denied a less than robust sixbagger willing to play in some other strain.

 

Agree with Timo that West should have been able to solve everything over righty's 3♠ bid. We just disagree on how. I believe 4♥ would be a perfect choice-of-games bid with the inferences from the earlier rounds. He likes Double, which would confuse my alleged mind.

[MrAce]

Respectfully disagree with everything here, and commend East for not over-emphasizing his nice-but-mediocre six card heart suit.

While it is true that the 1♥ rebid did not show more than 5 hearts, it is not true that it denied a less than robust sixbagger willing to play in some other strain.

 

Agree with Timo that West should have been able to solve everything over righty's 3♠ bid. We just disagree on how. I believe 4♥ would be a perfect choice-of-games bid with the inferences from the earlier rounds. He likes Double, which would confuse my alleged mind.

 

Actually, I wrote in BW that my choice was double of 3♠ here but the comments made by 2 posters there persuaded me that DBL is not such a great idea.

I am not really keen on what to bid over 3♠. I believe 4♦ did not cut it. Pass would not occur to me.

4♥ or 4♣ makes more sense to me, considering that we bid only 1♦ and then passed over 1♠, we have a big hand when pd made the 3rd round bid by himself.

Bidding 2♥ with the actual hand, after starting DBL, would only occur to me if we played ELC.

Rainer has a point that it is a matter of agreement though. If 2♥ means "I can play vs xx or stiff honor" then 2♥ is not that bad.

But just like you, I do not think his suggested method is superior. Having to double jump just to say he has solid hearts is awful imo. My 2♥, setting trumps style is still non forcing. I bid 3♥ with giants pretty much equal to opening 2♣ and jumping.