To dive or not or to dive

[ahydra]

[hv=pc=n&e=s8632hkq432d5ct43&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=pp1d1h5d]133|200[/hv]

 

IMPs, you're green vs red, club game.

 

ahydra

[Tramticket]

Pass - the 5-level belongs to opps.

 

Bidding can go wrong in all sorts of ways:

- Maybe we were defeating 5♦.

- Maybe they are in the wrong game and have missed 3NT.

- Maybe they miss their slam.

- Maybe they play in the wrong slam.

- Maybe they bid on to a slam which isn't making.

 

They have guessed at the five level.

[eagles123]

Pass - the 5-level belongs to opps.

 

Bidding can go wrong in all sorts of ways:

- Maybe we were defeating 5♦.

- Maybe they are in the wrong game and have missed 3NT.

- Maybe they miss their slam.

- Maybe they play in the wrong slam.

- Maybe they bid on to a slam which isn't making.

 

They have guessed at the five level.

 

imo you have missed the far more likely option of

 

- Maybe pass leads to a double game swing

[eagles123]

Pass - the 5-level belongs to opps.

 

Bidding can go wrong in all sorts of ways:

- Maybe we were defeating 5♦.

- Maybe they are in the wrong game and have missed 3NT.

- Maybe they miss their slam.

- Maybe they play in the wrong slam.

- Maybe they bid on to a slam which isn't making.

 

They have guessed at the five level.

 

imo you have missed the far more likely option of

 

- Maybe pass leads to a double game swing

 

the bolded one also seems exceedingly unlikely

[MrAce]

Pass - the 5-level belongs to opps.

 

Bidding can go wrong in all sorts of ways:

- Maybe we were defeating 5♦.

Maybe, but maybe 5♥ is a great save especially at these colors.

 

- Maybe they are in the wrong game and have missed 3NT.

 

They are definitely not in their wrong game. 5♦ bidder has way too many diamonds that I would not be surprised if pd is void in diamonds.

 

- Maybe they miss their slam.

Maybe but LHO did not pass yet. Maybe he is about to cue 5♥ if we pass and if we bid they may actually have hard time to bid grand.

 

- Maybe they play in the wrong slam.

Nope. Why you keep saying they may be in wrong suit when one of them opened 1♦ and other one jumped to 5 level vulnerable escapes me.

 

- Maybe they bid on to a slam which isn't making.

What does what we do have anything to do with them bidding a slam that does not make?

 

They have guessed at the five level.

Nope. They were not forced to guess anything at 5 level. They voluntarily bid it. There is a huge difference between these two terms.

 

 

Overall only thing that concerns me about bidding 5♥ is, it may actually trigger them whoever has shortness in ♥ can figure his pd does not have wasted values. But then again, 6♥ save may be better than 5♦ as well. Or maybe they are about to bid grand and pd will be in much better shape to decide to save or not knowing we have a big fit.

[billw55]

I bid 5♥. Eagles and Ace gave good enough reasons. For another, consider that responder made his flying leap as a passed hand. Obviously the 1♦ opening improved his hand considerably. This suggests a distributional deal where games may make on fewer high cards. It also increases that chance that partner has good values, which sit behind opener.

 

I have been quoting SJ Simon a lot lately. When in doubt, bid one more.

[ggwhiz]

I'm having a hard time coming up with a passed hand 5♦ bid on this vul instead of a cue bid that makes sense.

 

Unless of course a double game swing is possible with some kind of weak freak in north (6-5?).

 

If it's just a bad bid I don't like their chances of south working it out either after I bid 5♥ which should be relatively cheap imp insurance. Worst case, -300 when 5 diamonds goes down, a very narrow target.

[Phil]

If you don't bid 5♥ in this position and at these colors with this hand, when would you ever bid it?

[Kaitlyn S]

If you don't bid 5♥ in this position and at these colors with this hand, when would you ever bid it?

I bid 5H and don't think it's close.

 

One thing is for sure, if I think for a couple of seconds, I almost have to bid 5H because if partner has a good hand, any bid or double by him is going to get rolled back to the worst of the possible results we could get.

[shyams]

I bid 5H and don't think it's close.

 

One thing is for sure, if I think for a couple of seconds, I almost have to bid 5H because if partner has a good hand, any bid or double by him is going to get rolled back to the worst of the possible results we could get.

Regardless of whether North uses the STOP card before the 5♦ bid, you are required to pause & think for 10 seconds before making your bid.

[Kaitlyn S]

Regardless of whether North uses the STOP card before the 5♦ bid, you are required to pause & think for 10 seconds before making your bid.

I've been annoying players in the Laws forums for days now and am really trying to resist doing the same here, but I can hardly fail to mention that this seems like one more way that the average player can be gypped by the bridge lawyers. For you can't tell me that if I take my mandatory 10 seconds and then pass and partner doubles, that the director isn't going to be at my table really soon with some bad news for me.

 

This might be a good time to mention that in a recent ACBL bulletin, there was a letter to the editor requesting to dump the STOP card because it was being used far more often to make partner aware you are showing strength than for its intended purpose.

[neilkaz]

Regardless of whether North uses the STOP card before the 5♦ bid, you are required to pause & think for 10 seconds before making your bid.

As I understand this is true in the UK, but is it also true here in the USA when no STOP card was used.

 

I agree with Kaitlyn and would like to see all STOP cards melted down and recycled into something more useful.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[ggwhiz]

This might be a good time to mention that in a recent ACBL bulletin, there was a letter to the editor requesting to dump the STOP card because it was being used far more often to make partner aware you are showing strength than for its intended purpose.

 

Amen to that but I still favor education on your tempo obligations and dumping the stop card.

[mycroft]

People *will* not follow the rules, and *will* complain when it bites them, and *will* say it's the STOP card's fault, not their failing to "call without undue hesitation or haste [given the RA-mandated] mandatory pause[] after skip-bid warning..."

 

Board 40 or so of the Round 1 Spingold Match, and Your Humble Narrator is doing his best to hold the loss to under 100 (note: objective failed). Auction wound its way to [skip]3NT, and Multiple National Champion puts down dummy. During the play he looks more and more perplexed. Finally, at the end (making 4) he asks "What were you thinking about?"

Declarer (also a multiple National Champion): "10 seconds."

MNC: "I mean, you could bid 4♣, but that would go for its life. What were you thinking about?"

Declarer: "10 seconds, Richie, like he's supposed to." (turning to me) "You do know you're the only person in the room that would do that, right?"

YHN: "Well, most of the time, I'm one of the people wandering around, but your government won't let me work in the States."

 

The problem with the Stop card is mostly that they *will* only pull it out for preempts (like 1♥-4♥), but not 1NT-3NT... (the REAL problem is that there are people who think 1♣-p-2♠ is weak, but 1♣-p-STOP 2♠ is strong. That needs to be stamped out, I agree).

 

On-topic: The only concern with 5♥ is that -620 might be our best score. I have been known to be the Last Best Bridge Pessimist, of course.

[Phil]

Take it as a compliment.

 

In the Silador final this year we had an auction 1D (x) pass against Meckwell. The pass was alerted and Jeff asked and I said "well we play xx as hearts so he could have a good hand". They quickly bid to 3N and I made a rare good lead and we were quickly -600.

 

Eric said, "good for you for alerting. Most people don't in that situation".

[shyams]

I've been annoying players in the Laws forums for days now and am really trying to resist doing the same here, but I can hardly fail to mention that this seems like one more way that the average player can be gypped by the bridge lawyers. For you can't tell me that if I take my mandatory 10 seconds and then pass and partner doubles, that the director isn't going to be at my table really soon with some bad news for me.

 

While I don't always use the STOP card diligently (e.g. 1N - Stayman; 2any - 3NT), I would most certainly use it when I am skipping the bidding by so many levels. I mean, the person plans to jump to 5♦ and not be bothered to fish out a STOP card? Wow!

[Kaitlyn S]

While I don't always use the STOP card diligently (e.g. 1N - Stayman; 2any - 3NT), I would most certainly use it when I am skipping the bidding by so many levels. I mean, the person plans to jump to 5♦ and not be bothered to fish out a STOP card? Wow!

Ah, you're misunderstanding me. It's the player that bids 5D and doesn't use the STOP card that is going to be the lawyer and try to roll back the opponent's good guess if the player over 5D takes the mandatory 10 seconds and passes and the overcaller doesn't pass.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&e=s8632hkq432d5ct43&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=pp1d1h5d]133|200|

Agree with eagles123 and Mr Ace. I rank

 

1. 5♥ = NAT. A danger is that partner takes you seriously and bids a slam. At this vulnerability, however, even 7♥X-3 is a save against 5♦=.

 

2. Pass = NAT. Partner might re-open with a "card-showing" double. In which case, you can bid 5♥, without exciting him too much.[/hv]

[mcphee]

Whoever claimed the 5 level belongs to the opps is right, and at this time I am the opp. My RHO has lept to 5D because he expects it to have play. A short study of our moose has convinced me he may even be correct.

[ahydra]

Thanks all. Do I win a prize for having a 14-0 unanimous poll? :)

 

Here's the full hand - given the NS hands you might wonder if I posted the correct hand, but I assure you I've got it right:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sk7h97dakjtcak987&w=sqt5hajt65d762cj6&n=saj94h8dq9843cq52&e=s8632hkq432d5ct43&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=pp1d1h5d5hdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

I did pick 5H, loving the look of the vulnerability and noting my hand had exactly no defence to 5D (and also thinking North must hold a lot more shape than he did). This went for 500 after a misdefence and so we thought we'd picked up a good board, only to find team-mates had gone down in 3NT rather than find the cold slam. Ah well.

 

Do the 5H bidders also make the same choice at matchpoints?

 

ahydra

[billw55]

West hand is a pretty thin overcall, not sure I would do it at IMPs, but at least the suit is good. Yes, I also bid 5♥ at matchpoints, although it is closer.

 

No matter though, this is a situation where the more we go down, the more they make, so the dive keeps working thanks to the colors. Even if they get the full 800, it's peanuts to 1370. In truth, when your teammates reach the wrong contract and go minus when they have slam, it is hard to win the board.

 

Also as south I would open 1♣, reversing next. North's 5♦ is odd as well, there are good alternatives that don't blow so much space, x and 2♥ come to mind.

 

[ggwhiz]

Thanks all. Do I win a prize for having a 14-0 unanimous poll? :)

 

Here's the full hand - given the NS hands you might wonder if I posted the correct hand, but I assure you I've got it right:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sk7h97dakjtcak987&w=sqt5hajt65d762cj6&n=saj94h8dq9843cq52&e=s8632hkq432d5ct43&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=pp1d1h5d5hdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

This went for 500 after a misdefence

 

Do the 5H bidders also make the same choice at matchpoints?

 

ahydra

 

No surprise that a player that bid this like north would drop a trick on defence (A♠ lead?) and if you could throw them in a couple more times you might get out for down 1 :)

 

Yes I bid it at matchpoints. Playing your rho to be bonkers is a mugs game and thems the breaks.

[kenberg]

Interesting hand, illustrating my general view that bridge is less predictable than we think. I had originally voted for pass. I was not that worried about 5H going down too much, I was worried about them bidding and making 6D. But then I deleted my vote thinking that if they can make 6 my pass is not going to stop them anyway. Then I decided to just read the comments and skip voting. [Note: I don't mind all that much being in the extreme minority, sometimes I take pride in it.] So here we are. 5H could have been set 800 but wasn't, they could have made 6D but didn't bid it, and at the other table they were in 3NTgoing down. As you say, "Ah well"

[ahydra]

No surprise that a player that bid this like north would drop a trick on defence (A♠ lead?)

 

Not quite - it went diamond, ♣AK, spade to the J and then North played the ♠A crashing the K. I think that technically counts as South's fault, unless he was trying to deceive declarer with a putative ♠AQ?

 

ahydra

[Phil]

Interesting 5♦ call. Maybe they don't play negative doubles.