ATB -500 against nothing

[broze]

[hv=pc=n&s=s3hakjt2dj42cjt93&w=sqj764hq74dt3ckq7&n=sa95h8dakq86c8654&e=skt82h9653d975ca2&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1h1s2d3sppdppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Scoring is MPs.

 

The defence got their ♥ ruff and the result was -500 for EW with no game making for NS. The opponents evidently took a view in the bidding.

[TylerE]

Looks normal to me. Rather unlucky as most will probably open 2♥ which won't see a 2♠ bid from W.

[Phil]

Easy to replicate but with a balanced defensive hand and xxx in RHO's in an auction where you are outgunned I may have bid 2S.

[Kaitlyn S]

If they never get you, you aren't bidding enough. Both bids look routine to me; in the long run, I think 3S is going to cause the opponents more trouble than it will cause you, even red vs white.

 

Next time they'll double on these cards, you'll have more distribution and make 730. If you only bid 3S when you can get 730 or -200 you are letting the opponents have too much of a free run.

[ArtK78]

Bad luck for EW. Perfectly normal.

 

I play the 3♠ bid by E as a mixed raise - not a preemptive raise. And the E hand is a mixed raise. So I would bid 3♠. If that gets doubled for 500 opposite nothing, that is very unlucky.

 

 

 

[rmnka447]

Looks normal at MPs.

[Cyberyeti]

I wouldn't overcall on that flat quacky aceless heap at any vul, and would only raise to 2 at this vul if I thought partner might do so, but I know my views on overcalls are out of line with most peoples'.

[neilkaz]

I will go against the grain here as I am happy to see someone wield the ax at mps at these colors vs a part score. Most of us can and will o/c with that junk to bring ♠ into the auction so east who is bidding over a 2/1 (OK not GF for most in comp but certainly a good hand) should realize that his side might only hold 16 or 17 hcp and that -500 can happen. Many of you might consider 3♠ to be good aggressive mp bidding, but the hand is flat and the colors seem wrong to me. -500 will be a bad score even if the opps have game.

 

Of course there's the question of what to I do next round if the opps bid to the 3 level over my 2♠ but I do think at this vul east should give strong consideration to just bidding 2♠.

[ggwhiz]

The east hand is way too good AND misdirected both shape and defense wise for 3♠ for my taste.

 

What game are you pre-empting them out of? Oh, maybe your own when partner has both black suits and thinks you are weak.

[Kaitlyn S]

What game are you pre-empting them out of? Oh, maybe your own when partner has both black suits and thinks you are weak.

Most of us assume that East is making a mixed raise. West can still bid game opposite that with the appropriate hand, and knowing that East has four trump will help West know what is appropriate to bid game on.

[mr1303]

I know it's the modern style, but overcalling 1S on a flat aceless effective 8 count at unfavourable is the cause of -500 vs nothing. 3S should be a good bid opposite a normal vulnerable overcall with all the points working.

 

If it's your style to overcall on that junk, you have to accept the -500s and worse that will occasionally go with it.

[aawk]

East supported his partner nothing wrong with that.

 

If overcalls can be done with the hand west had don't complain it is the price you are willing to pay.

 

So the question remains should west give a overcall ? This depends if you play for MP or IMP.

 

Playing for MPs anything goes it is a bidding war for the partscore. Personaly i would pass because you could still balance if it goes 1♥-p-1nt-p-p-? but even for that the hand is not suited imho.

 

Playing for IMPs the hand is way to weak it got 9 LTC (loosing trick count) and no aces (means 10 LTC to me). Or if you don't know or use the LTC even then it is a big no no you got 3 queens from which the queen of ♥ has little value.

 

My tip for overcalls (in IMP play) is if you cannot open at 1 level don't give a overcall. When you get better in bridge you can lower the minimum for overcalls in agreement with your p.

[ahydra]

No blame really, though I agree with those who say West could consider pass given his poor suit and poor shape. (Who plays North's X for penalties in this auction? Surely thrump double is more useful?)

 

3NT N/S isn't hopeless by any means - it's on the H finesse which happens to be offside this time, though 500 against 400 is still a disaster at matchpoints.

 

ahydra

[fourdad]

I consider 3♠ to be an overbid.

[MrAce]

I consider 3♠ to be an overbid.

 

Agreed. I consider that East needs to see an eye doctor and check if he is color blind.

[billw55]

1♠ is no thing of beauty, but I can live with it at MP.

 

Meanwhile 3♠ just looks like a gross overbid at these colors. To me this is an ordinary 7 count with four card support, maybe worth 9 in total. Perhaps east forgot that doubles of partscores come quicker unfavorable at MP, and -200 may already be a zero? Also note that "-500 against nothing" is meaningless at MP, it is still a zero versus -400, 430, or 450.

 

But some good players seem to like 3♠. Maybe I am getting old and stodgy.

[manudude03]

I think 1♠ is normal. I don't like 3♠ though. It's not so much that it is a 7 count, or it has an ace and a king, but it has 4 hearts and 3 diamonds which are probably the worst holdings to have in each suit given the bidding.

[Caitlynne]

I chose "More East" but really my answer is "100% East".

 

East has 4 trumps and an Ace, but really all the signs are there that West is light and the honor values AND distribution lie well for the opponents on defense. So a preempt at unfavorable vulnerability is clearly inadvisable.

 

What is bad? In terms of the auction, it is clear the opponents have the balance of strength, so holding a King and Ace, East knows West has a light overcall.

 

What's more, the location of the honor values are unlikely to be sitting well for offense. Three small diamonds over the diamond bidder suggests that any diamond values West holds will be greatly compromised by sitting under the opponent's diamond strength. Four small hearts suggests that both North and West will have at most two hearts; that is, there may not be even a single heart winner. That is, for there to be much offensive potential, West must hold club length and club strength. Even a holding like Kxxxx of clubs may not be very good as West may not have quick entries to hand to ruff losing clubs.

 

3S was an abomination and earns East 100% of the blame.

[Cyberyeti]

I chose "More East" but really my answer is "100% East".

 

East has 4 trumps and an Ace, but really all the signs are there that West is light and the honor values AND distribution lie well for the opponents on defense. So a preempt at unfavorable vulnerability is clearly inadvisable.

 

What is bad? In terms of the auction, it is clear the opponents have the balance of strength, so holding a King and Ace, East knows West has a light overcall.

 

What's more, the location of the honor values are unlikely to be sitting well for offense. Three small diamonds over the diamond bidder suggests that any diamond values West holds will be greatly compromised by sitting under the opponent's diamond strength. Four small hearts suggests that both North and West will have at most two hearts; that is, there may not be even a single heart winner. That is, for there to be much offensive potential, West must hold club length and club strength. Even a holding like Kxxxx of clubs may not be very good as West may not have quick entries to hand to ruff losing clubs.

 

3S was an abomination and earns East 100% of the blame.

 

If partner guarantees a real overcall like AQJxx, xx, xx, Kxxx 3♠ is fine, but if he can overcall on the sort of tat he has, then you can't afford to bid it.

[miamijd]

Sometimes you just have bad luck.

 

There's nothing wrong with the 1S overcall. 3S isn't my style on the East hand, as I play 3S preemptive on this auction. I'd settle for 2S and see what developed. But I can't fault 3S; East has good 4-card support, so the Law is satisfied, and he has a side A and a ruffing value.

 

No, you just got fixed by a poor South player (or else a gambler). South doesn't have a 1H opener in anyone's book. North's X of 3S isn't a penalty double; it's cards. There is no way South ought to pass with a stiff spade; he needs to bid 4C. He deserves to find partner with:

 

xs

Qx

AKQxx

KQxx

 

and watch the opponents score up +730 (or at best set them one) when he can make 4H or 5C.

 

So South made two awful bids that worked out for him. Good for him; I'll take my chances against his type any day.

 

Cheers,

mike

[MrAce]

If partner guarantees a real overcall like AQJxx, xx, xx, Kxxx 3♠ is fine, but if he can overcall on the sort of tat he has, then you can't afford to bid it.

 

1♠ is perfectly normal overcall.

[Cyberyeti]

1♠ is perfectly normal overcall.

 

All I'm saying is that IF that's a normal overcall for you, then you don't want to bid 3♠ on the other hand particularly at this vul, it isn't for me but I'm aware I require more than most people.

[rhm]

1♠ is perfectly normal overcall.

All I'm saying is that IF that's a normal overcall for you, then you don't want to bid 3♠ on the other hand particularly at this vul, it isn't for me but I'm aware I require more than most people.

I do not require more, I require different.

West hand is a model hand how an overcall should not look like, not at any colors, but crazy when red against white.

The overcall takes up no space.

You have the worst possible holding in opponents suit.

In other words the hand has a very low ODR ratio full of quacks

It's not even clear you want spade led.

Jump raises as mixed are fine, but not opposite such overcalls.

I am not surprised nothing is on for opponents.

It's not bad luck it's simply bad Bridge

 

Sometimes you just have bad luck.

 

There's nothing wrong with the 1S overcall.

No, you just got fixed by a poor South player (or else a gambler). South doesn't have a 1H opener in anyone's book. North's X of 3S isn't a penalty double; it's cards. There is no way South ought to pass with a stiff spade; he needs to bid 4C.

So South made two awful bids that worked out for him. Good for him; I'll take my chances against his type any day.

 

Cheers,

mike

Some people should just take lessons in basic hand evaluation before posting here.

I am not saying I am endorsing all actions taken by South, which were no doubt aggressive and influenced by the favorable vulnerability.

But just compare the South hand with the West hand.

KNR values the South hand more than 4 points higher than the West hand.

If you can not see the difference, don't post.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[billw55]

If you can not see the difference, don't post.

Your whole post was interesting and informative, and then you throw in this snide personal slap at the end for no reason.

[Cyberyeti]

I do not require more, I require different.

West hand is a model hand how an overcall should not look like, not at any colors, but crazy when red against white.

The overcall takes up no space.

You have the worst possible holding in opponents suit.

In other words the hand has a very low ODR ratio full of quacks

It's not even clear you want spade led.

Jump raises as mixed are fine, but not opposite such overcalls.

I am not surprised nothing is on for opponents.

It's not bad luck it's simply bad Bridge

 

 

 

You spell out exactly what I've been trying to say in my posts.