How much do you need?

[Fluffy]

[hv=pc=n&s=sq952hj7532dj93c5&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=p1ddp1hp2dp]133|200[/hv]

 

What would you bid?, what is the minimum change in HCP to make a difference?

[wank]

i'd force to game. exactly how to do that in a way which gets across my major holdings is interesting. 3s now and 4h over 3nt? seems unilateral - partner might have a GF club hand with no spade stop, but i think it's probably a risk you have to take. 3S and stand 3NT? this hand seems much better in a suit and you haven't shown the 5th heart. 3d? partner will think you're looking for 3NT. 2s? not for me - risks being passed out.

 

i'd just bid 2S without the QS.

[MrAce]

2♠

 

No need for 3♠. 3♠ assumed, imo wrongly that 2 ♠ is passable.

Cue bid promises another bid unless we rebid 2♥. I have never seen 1 single auction in 35 years where one doubled, then cued over 0-9 response and then passed to a new suit.

[Kaitlyn S]

I don't think I would force to game since partner bids 2D with 19+ and 3 hearts (among other things.) What else does partner do with:

 

AKJ3, QT7, 62, AKQ4? A typical minimum 2D call (I might do it without the SJ.)

 

Frankly, I am probably more interested in your answers than you are in mine, but I would bid 2S with this hand but would bid 2H if the SQ was small. (Give partner AK3, A84, 62, AKJ62 and 3H might be too high opposite 9542, J7532, J93, 5.) I hope most of you would bid 2D on that hand and not 2C.

 

Having bid 2S on this hand, I'm not accepting if partner bids 3S (see my first example hand where a heart ruff might beat me, so 2S doesn't work so well) or if partner bids 3H (on my second example hand where I'll lose two trump and two diamonds.)

 

Even though I probably make 3H but not 3S, I can't say 2S is a bad bid because partner could have AK73, AK, 764, AKQ6, how else can he bid this? If I advance 1H and then bid 2S, partner can hardly not bid 4S which I don't want with 9542, J7532 J93, 5. He shouldn't force to game if I bid 2H, and I don't think he shows more than 4 spades with 2S now since he could have bid 1S over my 1H with 19+ and 5 spades and 2S over my 1H with more. (He could have a powerful hand with a 5-card suit that he didn't think was good enough for a jump to 2S.) Essentially, I think 1D X P 1H P 2D P 2H P 2S says: Instead of having 19+ with 3 hearts, I have a stronger hand where 2H is a bad contract opposite xxx, xxxx, xxx, xxx. It's not forcing since 3D was available, and I don't have a diamond stopper, you decide where we belong.

 

While we might land on our feet if I bid 2H with your actual hand opposite AK73, AK, 764, AKQ6 (partner bids 2S, I bid 4S), I like 2S on the actual hand because I feel I've bid all I've got and can pass 3S when partner has four spades but not enough to bid 4S himself.

[wank]

2♠

 

No need for 3♠. 3♠ assumed, imo wrongly that 2 ♠ is passable.

Cue bid promises another bid unless we rebid 2♥. I have never seen 1 single auction in 35 years where one doubled, then cued over 0-9 response and then passed to a new suit.

 

i'm not surprised you haven't seen it. it's a pretty rare auction.

i think making the strong hand bid 3 times on what could be an 18 count is excessive (and obviously a recipe for going overboard).

[MrAce]

i think making the strong hand bid 3 times on what could be an 18 count is excessive.

 

18-19 count cues only with an extreme fit.

Cue to 0-9 responses are really big hands if no fit.

FYI, normal overcalls are stretched all the way up to 18 hcp, let alone DBL followed by a cue.

If you start to jump all over the place just because you have 3-4 beans instead of 0, is an awful strategy/style tbh.

 

EDIT: Your 18 hcp cue view and making a GF bid with this OP hand, sounds like written by 2 different posters with same account. Sorry.

[Phil]

Considering xxx xxx xxxx xxx would bid 2♥, I think I need to do something more constructive over a cuebid.

[wank]

18-19 count cues only with an extreme fit.

Cue to 0-9 responses are really big hands if no fit.

FYI, normal overcalls are stretched all the way up to 18 hcp, let alone DBL followed by a cue.

 

it seems like you're putting too many hands into a simple response for my taste. i jump on almost all 8s with a major and less with a 5 card suit.

 

that puts the actual hand in the top half for a 1H bid. and i think advancer has to take some of the strain once the doubler shows extras.

[wank]

 

 

EDIT: Your 18 hcp cue view and making a GF bid with this OP hand, sounds like written by 2 different posters with same account. Sorry.

 

i think the advancing hand is worth a punt to game opposite an 18 count if there's a major fit and i'm expecting 2 mos of the time (when partner's got a minimum cue anyway)

[MrAce]

it seems like you're putting too many hands into a simple response for my taste. i jump on almost all 8s with a major and less with a 5 card suit.

 

that puts the actual hand in the top half for a 1H bid. and i think advancer has to take some of the strain once the doubler shows extras.

 

I am bidding 1 ♥ all day long with

 

Jxx Kxxx Qxx QJx

 

when pd doubles 1♦. I believe jumping to 2♥ or bidding 1 NT when knowing pd is short in diamonds and skipping 4 card ♥ are pretty bad calls.

 

OTOH, I bid 2♥ with less beans than this but a little more shape or hearts.

[wank]

I am bidding 1 ♥ all day long with

 

Jxx Kxxx Qxx QJx

 

when pd doubles 1♦. I believe jumping to 2♥ or bidding 1 NT when knowing pd is short in diamonds and skipping 4 card ♥ are pretty bad calls.

 

OTOH, I bid 2♥ with less beans than this but a little more shape or hearts.

 

you're right. i would feel awkward bidding 2H on that too, but i'd solve the issue by bidding 1NT to get my HCP across more accurately than with what's evidently a very wide range 1H in your approach. partner can cue on the way to 3NT to get more info.

 

i've seen you like to overcall 1NT much more often than I do because you're worried about missing game with 16-18 opposite 7-9. this makes rather more sense if you're putting all these hands into 1H.

[Kaitlyn S]

18-19 count cues only with an extreme fit. .

What do you do over a 1H advance with AKxx, Axx, xx, AKJx?

[MrAce]

What do you do over a 1H advance with AKxx, Axx, xx, AKJx?

 

2♦

This type of hands are exceptional.

But I would NEVER pass if pd bids 2♠ or 3♣ and try to stop on a dime. I can pass 2♥ or 2 NT.

 

Basically Wank suggests that doubler can have a hand

 

-18/19 hcp

-No 4 card fit

-No 5 card suit to bid after DBL

-No stopper in opponent suit

-And willing to pass to a new suit by responder.

[mike777]

[hv=pc=n&s=sq952hj7532dj93c5&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=p1ddp1hp2dp]133|200[/hv]

 

What would you bid?, what is the minimum change in HCP to make a difference?

 

 

3d

 

 

fwiw I assume 2d=huge, not semi huge

 

i grant forum members bid 2d on crap...semi crap

[Kaitlyn S]

2♦

This type of hands are exceptional.

I would think that the 19-20ish with 3-card support is going to be dealt a lot more frequently than the rock crushers after the opponents have opened.

 

However, I agree with you that 2S and 3C should be forcing and 2H and 2NT not forcing.

[cherdano]

I think US standard is that 2H shows a minimum (non-forcing) and all other bids showed at least a bit of extra, F1. That may mean not finding your if both hands are minimum for their actions so far, but something has to give.

 

I am not sure this leads itself to a productive debate. It will be strange to players socialised in US bridge to have a new suit opposite a X-then-cue as non-forcing - new suits show extras! It will be strange to UK players not to find your best fit when you are 4234-19 hcp opposite 4522-2hcp - how silly not to be able to make natural bids!

[Kaitlyn S]

I think US standard is that 2H shows a minimum (non-forcing) and all other bids showed at least a bit of extra, F1. That may mean not finding your if both hands are minimum for their actions so far, but something has to give.

 

I am not sure this leads itself to a productive debate. It will be strange to players socialised in US bridge to have a new suit opposite a X-then-cue as non-forcing - new suits show extras! It will be strange to UK players not to find your best fit when you are 4234-19 hcp opposite 4522-2hcp - how silly not to be able to make natural bids!

I am from the US. I don't think a new suit by advancer after the cuebid is forcing if it the cuebidder still has 2 of advancer's first suit available (not possible on this auction, but 1C X P 1S P 2C P 2D could be bid on xxxx, xx, xxxx, xxx.)

 

I realize that this could present some awkward issues, but my view on the cuebid is that it shows 19+ with 3-card support but 22+ without 3-card support. Clearly the former is more common - if cuebidder pulls the advancer's rebid of the same suit, he has the latter; and might only have four cards in the new suit (since he had other opportunities to show that suit in a strong hand with length.)

 

I would not cuebid with 4-2-3-4 19HCP, because partner will be disappointed in my heart support (or my strength if I decide to show 22.) Fortunately the frequency of this hand is quite low, but I have to "lie" about something, and the cuebid showing a third heart or 3 more points is a pretty big lie. Given that I don't have a diamond stopper, my spades are probably pretty strong so I might correct to 1S. (Perhaps I might have overcalled 1S originally?) If my spades aren't strong, I might bid 1NT with D-Jxx and hope RHO doesn't have five running diamonds when partner raises to game (or that LHO doesn't lead one!) Maybe I should even do this with D-xxx! In any event, that auction will get us to 2H when partner has a terrible hand with six (and sometimes five) hearts. The upside, however, is that partner has faith when I cuebid that I have what I said I have.

[Phil]

I'm also from the US and the only non-forcing auction is a rebid of responders suit.

[Kaitlyn S]

I'm also from the US and the only non-forcing auction is a rebid of responders suit.

Full disclosure: Phil has actually played in the last ten years so his post is more likely to reflect current thinking.

[Phil]

Full disclosure: Phil has actually played in the last ten years so his post is more likely to reflect current thinking.

 

I guess, but you'd be surprised how often an oddball auction like this gets discussed. As in never.

[Kaitlyn S]

I guess, but you'd be surprised how often an oddball auction like this gets discussed. As in never.

Apparently that is true. I looked in Mike Lawrence's "Complete Book on Takeout Doubles" and I don't believe he even mentions what the cuebid itself shows!

 

As a nonexpert, I submitted a more detailed discussion on what various follow ups mean than I have ever seen or heard, compiled from years of play. While what I have written makes sense to me, I expected it to conflict with prevailing expert opinion in some ways, and was delighted to see that people might finally discuss it so I could learn what the prevailing expert opinion was. The impression I'm getting is that there is no prevailing expert opinion. Of course, my interest is purely theoretical as Lord knows how a random partner in the BBO Main Bridge Club is going to take any of these auctions, and no doubt, will assume that I am clueless if I guess incorrectly.

[neilkaz]

I'm also from the US and the only non-forcing auction is a rebid of responders suit.

Same here as what is responder supposed to do with the absolute rubbish he can hold here?

[mycroft]

I think by responder we mean advancer here. So 2♥ is "hey, partner, I hear ya. Don't expect even a king." Anything else is F1 at least, if I read Phil correctly.

[Phil]

Correct, I meant advancer.

[MrAce]

I think US standard is that 2H shows a minimum (non-forcing) and all other bids showed at least a bit of extra, F1. That may mean not finding your if both hands are minimum for their actions so far, but something has to give.

 

I am not sure this leads itself to a productive debate. It will be strange to players socialised in US bridge to have a new suit opposite a X-then-cue as non-forcing - new suits show extras! It will be strange to UK players not to find your best fit when you are 4234-19 hcp opposite 4522-2hcp - how silly not to be able to make natural bids!

 

Sorry I do not buy this. I do not think it has anything to do with where one is from.

 

1♦--1♠

2♦-Pass

 

There is a reason this auction plays their 5-1 ♦ instead of their 4-4♥ fit.

 

1♥----1NT

2♦--2♥

Pass There is a reason why this auction may be playing their 5-2 ♥ and not their 5-4 ♦ fit.

 

1♦---1♠

2♦---Pass Where they may play their 6-0 ♦ partscore instead of their 6-3 or 7-3 ♣ partscore.

 

There are MANY auctions, in all over the world, regardless of your country, where one can not bid naturally. The general principle is, you can not afford to make natural calls with the intention of finding best suit for part score.

Well you can but it leads to other things

 

• Not able to make natural calls without fear of being passed with better hands and have to jump like grasshopper all over the place just because you have couple jacks or Q extra.
• It does not even allow you to play your best partscore at proper level. When doubler does not have 4 card ♠ he will have to bid 3♥. Instead of being able to play 2♥ now you are playing 3♥ on a 4-3 fit if you change the hand Kaitlyn gave to 3334. Or you can pass 2♠ and play a 4-3 fit when 5-3 ♥ fit was available.
• If the side suit of advancer is clubs, it gets even more nasty. Good luck to any player from any nation to spare an auction that one of them doubles and then cues and then passes to new suit 3♣ and expect this to be a winning method.

There is a reason why people bid 1♠ first as advancer, over the double with 4-4 majors and a very weak hand.

We never said one should not bid 2♠ with very weak hands. (I do not but what I do is irrelevant) You can bid naturally your 4 card ♠ fit. Playing it to be passable is another story.