Muiderberg / Woo Two in fourth seat

[pstansbu]

I'm interested in fourth seat options and advice when playing the following:

• 
   
  
• Multi-2♦ which includes weak 2 in Majors and
  
• Muiderberg/Woo twos where 2M shows 5 in the bid Major and 4+ in a minor and weak
  

Previously playing standard weak twos we would have used 2M to show an intermediate (10-14) hand with a reasonable 6 card suit.

 

Playing 2M as an intermediate 5-4 as above feels risky but may not be in practice

 

The Multi could now inlcude the intermediate 6 carder or the 2M bid could be re-purposed for this and the 2♦ showing the strong options only (No Trump or 4-4-4-1 in our case).

[Cyberyeti]

I actually wonder after 3 passes what your most likely point count is if you have 6M.

 

My thought is that particularly in hearts, opening at the 2 level and not allowing an easy 1♠ entry for the opps is desirable, so using 2♦ as multi and 2M as another range of either strong or int->strong is not silly. This means 1♥ and a 3♥ rebid is something specific (possibly the death hand if you don't have another way to bid it and it doesn't fit into whatever scheme you use for your 2s).

 

You could also consider using the fantunes 2 non clubs possibly adjusting the range slightly.

[Tramticket]

We play a multi + Lucas Twos (similar to Muiderberg Twos) and I must admit the meaning of a fourth seat 2♥/♠ has not come up - one to discuss with partner. I suspect that a six card suit 10-13 sounds about right.

 

Our fourth seat 2♦ will always be a strong option and we have discussed the implications for our response structure - we never make pre-emptive jumps in the majors opposite the fourth seat multi. We also work on the assumption that our third seat 2♦ opening is strong if the fourth seat opponent remains silent.

[pstansbu]

I actually wonder after 3 passes what your most likely point count is if you have 6M.

 

My thought is that particularly in hearts, opening at the 2 level and not allowing an easy 1♠ entry for the opps is desirable, so using 2♦ as multi and 2M as another range of either strong or int->strong is not silly. This means 1♥ and a 3♥ rebid is something specific (possibly the death hand if you don't have another way to bid it and it doesn't fit into whatever scheme you use for your 2s).

 

You could also consider using the fantunes 2 non clubs possibly adjusting the range slightly.

Please elaborate on the fantunes piece - I'm not familiar with this (2 non clubs that is rather than fantunes generally) but keen to know more

[Zelandakh]

Here are some options:

1. 3 weaks: 2♦, 2♥ and 2♠ all show a 6+ card suit and around 10-13hcp

2. 3 intermediates: 2♦, 2♥ and 2♠ all show a 6+ card suit and around 14-16hcp

3. 3 strongs, 2♦: 2♥ and 2♠ all show an Acol 2 opening in that suit

4. 2 weaks + Reverse Benji 2♦: 2♥ and 2♠ show a 6+ card suit and around 10-13hcp; 2♦ shows a big balanced hand or an Acol 2 in any suit (or just in a minor if you prefer)

5. 2 intermediates + Reverse Benji 2♦: 2♥ and 2♠ show a 6+ card suit and around 14-16hcp; 2♦ shows a big balanced hand or an Acol 2 in any suit (or just in a minor if you prefer)

6. 2 strongs + Reverse Benji 2♦: 2♥ and 2♠ show an Acol 2 opening in that suit; 2♦ shows a big balanced hand or an Acol 2 in a minor

7. 2 weaks + Flannery: 2♥ and 2♠ show a 6+ card suit and around 10-13hcp; 2♦ shows 10-14 with 5+ hearts and 4 spades

8. 2 intermediates + Flannery: 2♥ and 2♠ show a 6+ card suit and around 14-16hcp; 2♦ shows 10-14 with 5+ hearts and 4 spades

9. 2 strongs + Flannery: 2♥ and 2♠ show an Acol 2 opening in that suit; 2♦ shows 10-14 with 5+ hearts and 4 spades

 

Obviously there are many other possibilities too although I would tend to steer you away from using 2M to show the 5M-4m hands. I suspect you would be happiest with #4 or #5, either of which would be perfectly adequate.

[pstansbu]

Here are some options:

 

8. 2 intermediates + Flannery: 2♥ and 2♠ show a 6+ card suit and around 14-16hcp; 2♦ shows 10-14 with 5+ hearts and 4 spades

 

 

Thanks for the list - two follow up questions :

 

Are you suggesting that there is a benefit to dropping the Multi 2♦ in the 4th seat and assigning one of the other meanings or are you giving a list of options without making any point on the pros and cons of the Multi bid in this seat?

 

Flannery is an interesting option we hadn't considered. Would you then use a simplified response to reflect the fact you don't want to start preempting and there will hardly ever be a game on (similar vein to Tramticket's comment)?

[Cyberyeti]

Please elaborate on the fantunes piece - I'm not familiar with this (2 non clubs that is rather than fantunes generally) but keen to know more

 

I meant all the 2 of a suits except 2♣ which you presumably want as your big hand.

[Zelandakh]

Are you suggesting that there is a benefit to dropping the Multi 2♦ in the 4th seat and assigning one of the other meanings or are you giving a list of options without making any point on the pros and cons of the Multi bid in this seat?

Multi 2♦ for me always includes a weak option so yes, I would suggest there is a benefit to dropping it. The caveat here is that the artificial strong 2♦ call mentioned in my previous post may end up looking like a strong-only multi, so the difference there is more in terms of nomenclature than anything else.

 

Flannery is an interesting option we hadn't considered. Would you then use a simplified response to reflect the fact you don't want to start preempting and there will hardly ever be a game on (similar vein to Tramticket's comment)?

Over a Flannery 2♦ opening, game is perfectly possible as any fit we uncover will be in a major. I doubt it makes much difference whether you use a classical response structure or a simplified one so just use what feels logical for you and your partner. The main reason for using a simplified structure here would be memory - if only playing Flannery in 4th seat it is not going to come up too often so a complicated scheme is probably not a very good idea regardless of any technical merits it might have.

[Finch]

We play 2D as a multi with the 'weak' two more an intermediate two, and 2M as strong in fourth seat. Not that this comes up very often.

In another partnership we switch to playing 2D as 14-16 flannery in fourth, whch is a nice hand type to take out of the 1H opener.

[pstansbu]

In another partnership we switch to playing 2D as 14-16 flannery in fourth, whch is a nice hand type to take out of the 1H opener.

I'm growing to like this Flannery option :)

 

Do you keep your strong options in the 2D - or just use it as Flannery?