Hole in the system

[Gerben42]

The conditions:

1st hand, none vulnerable, 7-board Team match (Victory Points) against weaker opponents.

 

Extra note: 1♦ shows at least 4 cards.

[inquiry]

Dont you think polls like this should include other? (Yes I know you will get 1000 people telling you a forcing 1♣ (precision, moscito, polish, etc) solves the problem if you did... heck you will get those anyway. I can add other to your poll if you like.

 

I have four ways to lie on this hand in my system.

 

Like you I can open 2♦ and if partner bids 2♠ (suggesting stuff in hearts), I can bid 2NT just like you did. If partner jumps to 3H/3S/3NT I can pass (I use 3NT to show 4-4 in majors).

 

If over my 2♦ partner bids 2♥, I can still rebid 2NT, but this maynot be a happy contract. My other alternative is 3♦ showing 9+ tricks with a diamond one suiter. My one suit is not so great, but I do have 4♣, 2♠ and with luck (and strech of the imagination 3.5 ♦ tricks.

 

I might open 3♦ (Misiry convention) then show minor two suiter, with four losers. I am a club short for this bid, but that AKQJ looks like five to me.

 

I might open 2♣ and rebid 2NT which I play to show any strong three suiter, I am a spade short for this bid.

 

I guess I would go with 2♦ and rebid NT or 3♦ based upon partner's bid. (my multi 2!D is weak either major, 23=24 balanced, or 9.5 tricks in a "solidish" minor (well, that part fails).

 

 

Ben

[scoob]

Dont you think polls like this should include other? (Yes I know you will get 1000 people telling you a forcing 1♣ (precision, moscito, polish, etc) solves the problem if you did... heck you will get those anyway. I can add other to your poll if you like.

but precision, moscito & polish are not "sayc and 2/1 discussion" :rolleyes:

[whereagles]

My plan would be

 

2C 2D

3D 3H

3NT

 

or

 

2C 2D

3D 3NT

4C

[hrothgar]

Dont you think polls like this should include other? (Yes I know you will get 1000 people telling you a forcing 1♣ (precision, moscito, polish, etc) solves the problem if you did... heck you will get those anyway. I can add other to your poll if you like.

but precision, moscito & polish are not "sayc and 2/1 discussion" :rolleyes:

Neither is a strong, artificial and forcing 2♦ opening, however, its part of the poll...

 

With this said and done, i'd open 1♦. I hate 2♣ openings on hands like this... You'll never have enough room after 2♣ to describe both minors and a spade fragment.

[P_Marlowe]

2C, intending to bid 3D.

 

The only trouble is the great quality of the suit,

but if the suit would have been better, this would

not have been a problem.

 

If partner bids hearts natural, I will bid 3NT,

if partner bids spade natural I will bid 4S.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[hotShot]

Playing SAYC this is a clear 2♣ opening.

Your partner will usually bid 2♦ waiting, andyou can show 2♦ your 5card suit. If partner passes tough luck. If he bids ♥ you can go for NT else you might have another fit.

[scoob]

Neither is a strong, artificial and forcing 2♦ opening, however, its part of the poll...

touche ;)

[Guest Jlall]

2C then 3D, what else? I am as big an advocate of opening 1x on 3 suiters as anyone, but there are limits. This is a huge hand that will often deliver game if partner passes 1D, so i simply cant open 1D.

[Walddk]

I will open 1♦, unless I can open a Multi 2♦ followed by 3♣ to show diamonds and clubs.

 

2♣ followed by 3♦ is hopeless, mainly because no one knows what 3♥/3♠ from responder is next. Suit or a feature? I don't want to guess if he bids 3♠ on perhaps Qxx.

 

I guess you 2♣ opener will raise to 4♠ in case he really has a spade suit. I wish you good luck with your 3-3 fit.

 

Roland

[mike777]

2C

 

Very tempting to open 1D

 

If 2D promises a K+ and game forcing then rebid of 3d may work out ok.

IF p bids 2H promising zero controls then 3D non forcing is enough.

[pbleighton]

1D. 3-1 in the majors, you are unlikely to be passed out, and you need the bidding space.

 

Peter

[cherdano]

2♣ followed by 3♦ is hopeless, mainly because no one knows what 3♥/3♠ from responder is next. Suit or a feature? I don't want to guess if he bids 3♠ on perhaps Qxx.

 

I guess you 2♣ opener will raise to 4♠ in case he really has a spade suit. I wish you good luck with your 3-3 fit.

Either you didn't read the poll, or you assume partner is hopeless. 2♣ denies a 4-card major. Why should partner pass 4♠ in the 3-3 fit?

 

Arend

[cherdano]

Dont you think polls like this should include other? (Yes I know you will get 1000 people telling you a forcing 1♣ (precision, moscito, polish, etc) solves the problem if you did... heck you will get those anyway. I can add other to your poll if you like.

I guess Gerben wanted this to be a judgement poll, not a bidding system poll. Either is interesting and fun, of course.

 

Arend

[han]

Agree with Arend that you can safely raise spades after 2C-2D-3D-3S, partner will know you have only 3 of them.

 

However, it is true that there is little hope of a succesful auction after this start. 1D has the disadvantage that you will be playing there when game is cold on some hands, but the advantage that you may be able to show what's in your hand on some others.

 

My partners respond on very little when holding a 5-card major, so I would bid a hopeful 1D.

[HeartA]

2♣.

[ochinko]

1D. 3-1 in the majors, you are unlikely to be passed out, and you need the bidding space.

My thoughts exactly. Not only opps are likely to intervene but even partner will bid 2M with a weak hand and 6 cards if you play WJO.

 

Petko

[Gerben42]

Let me comment on why I did not put "other" in my poll. If you are at the table you can not change the system. These are the options I had so these are the options you have.

 

For me the "Sayc and 2/1" Forum means "Standard System" Forum. Although this may not include a strong and forcing 2♦ for some, it does for this poll as is reflected by the options.

 

As you know I play a wide variety of systems and have my own ideas what works and what not. I would have no problem with the opening bid in any of my other systems as they all put all the 19+ hands in one place (or in 4 places in case of Fantunes-System)

 

As for what happened: I chose 2♣ then 3♦ after the negative 2♦. As there was no way to a reasonable contract in the given system anyway there is no result for the poll, but I found it interesting to see if anyone would sell this as a NT or 1♦ hand.

[luke warm]

playing sayc or 2/1 there's no way i open anything other than 2♣

[Fluffy]

About 40% for 1♦, last poll like these we got only 20%, seems we are improving ;).

[GijsH]

Reflecting on this hand: it is a 2-suited hand (AKQJ equals a 5card) and has 3 losers. Therefore a GF is in order. Notice also opponents are weaker, this means a) they are less likely to bid over our GF and :( they get excited by this hand and will bid game at the other table too.

So, I open a 2D and rebid 3D. with as little as ♥J109xx in dummy, 3NT will make. Or with ♦Kxx in dummy 5♦ has 50%.

[awm]

I am impressed that you can make 3nt opposite ♥JT9xx and out. I only count 7 tricks and it seems like in the process of playing diamonds out of your hand (you have no dummy entry) you will probably lose two diamonds and three hearts. Even if the defense plays spades for you, I don't particularly see how to make (now 8 tricks).

 

In fact even opposite a hand like:

 

xxx Kxxx xxx xxx

 

I would not say 3NT is that great. If the heart king scores, you have some chances (probably best is to take the spade finesse) but even replacing the ♥K with ♥A it seems like you're basically on a finesse.

 

As far as I can tell, the only hand that makes game really good that could not respond to a 1♦ call is a hand with a good fit for diamonds -- honor-third or something like five small will probably do it. But partner's much more likely to have a hand with heart length than diamond length -- and if partner really has five diamonds he might raise 1♦-3♦ or opponents might get into the bidding. There are plenty of hands with a heart honor where you go down after a strong opening. Keep in mind that 2♣ followed by 3♦ is basically a game force and if partner really has no points (and not 5-card ♦s) I don't see any game that has much play.

 

So that covers the case where partner has a hand that would pass 1♦. Seems close to the break even point. But the hands where partner BIDS over 1♦, you are MUCH better placed than after a strong 2♣/2♦ opening. It is quite likely that you get ALL your suits in via 1♦...3♣...3♠. Finding the best slam, or stopping in 3NT or 4NT, should be relatively easy on this hand once partner bids over the opening. Compare this to something like 2♣..3♦ where even showing your second suit is past 3NT.

[bearmum]

Playing SAYC or 2/1 (as opposed to a 1C forcing system like Precision -which I DO play :unsure: ) I really think it's a 2♣ opener -- because 1♦(non forcing) is a GROSS underbid IMHO

 

Assuming that P answers 2♦ (waiting) I then bid 3♦, which IMHO describes MY hand well - over to partner to bid his hand :)

Hopefully with 2+ points he will bid his 4 card suit --- and we will get to game

[bearmum]

1D. 3-1 in the majors, you are unlikely to be passed out, and you need the bidding space.

My thoughts exactly. Not only opps are likely to intervene but even partner will bid 2M with a weak hand and 6 cards if you play WJO.

 

Petko

 

 

(This post was AFTER my previous one where I answered the original question before looking at all the other posts )

 

BUT IF you don't play WJO - THEN 1♦(non forcing ) could mean U miss game if P has ONLY 4 points and NO 6 card suit for a WJS ( or am I missing something? :) )

 

AND even if you DO play WJS - what happens if P has 4 points and ONLY a 5 card suit??

[han]

Hi Bearmum,

 

The reason that I open 1D (which is indeed a gross underbid) are these:

 

1) My partner almost always responds with a 4-count and a five-card major (that's our style, we don't play WJS).

 

2) When my partner does respond, I can show a gameforcing hand with this exact shape whille still staying fairly low. This is impossible to do when opening 2C.

 

3) Over 1D, it will be easier for my partner to show that (s)he has some values, so we will more often reach a good slam.

 

4) If partner passes 1D, we may be saved by the opponents, and if so, we can still get to game.

 

5) If 1D is passed out, it may be right.