Can you reach 4H here?

[shevek]

[hv=pc=n&w=sakhaqj5daq9642c9&e=s763hk732d875ct85&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=2cp2dp3dp4dp4h(Or%20is%20this%20a%20cue%3F)ppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Is this auction possible?

If you would have opened 1♦, ignore the rest.

 

Do people play a second negative over 3♦?

 

Can East bid 3♥ over 3♦ with four?

 

Is 4♥ normally a control bid here?

(In which case you can never find a 4-4 major fit at this level)

 

TIA

[Kaitlyn S]

I don't play a second negative over 3D, and 3H by responder shows 5. I think 4H is okay to show a suit here so the auction is possible.

 

I'm playing in 1D unless my opponents balance, which they will regret.

[Stephen Tu]

I open 1D also.

 

If opening 2C with same shape but slightly stronger, I think the only good method to reach 4-4 fit is if you play the 3M rebid by opener to show 4M and diamond canape method. I am of opinion that 3M over 3D should be 5+M, and don't play any 2nd neg. Cater bids to get to best game. 2nd neg only caters to getting to 4m making 4 only, which is an exceedingly small target with no bonus, silly to aim for.

[Cyberyeti]

I open 1D also.

 

2nd neg only caters to getting to 4m making 4 only, which is an exceedingly small target with no bonus, silly to aim for.

 

Mark me down for 1♦ also.

 

Actually no it doesn't, 2nd neg when you have a REALLY big hand allows partner to cue Qs from the off if he's denied a K.

[kenrexford]

There are tools.

[Zelandakh]

While we can debate the question as to whether this is really a 2♣ opener it is rather ducking the issue. One of the good advancements in theory over a 2♣ opening has been to move away from the old concept of a jump rebid showing a self-supporting suit allowing 2♣ - 2♦; 3M instead to show 4 cards in M with longer diamonds. That in turn means that 2♣ - 2♦; 3♦ denies a 4 card major, meaning that Responder's 3M rebid in that sequence shows a 5 card suit. In this way, all 4-4 and 5-3 major fits can be found when Opener has diamonds.

 

A common corrollary for clubs is to play 2♣ - 2♦; 3♣ - 3♦ in Stayman-style asking Opener for a 4 card major, with 2♣ - 2♦; 3♣ - 3M then again showing 5. Once again, this uncovers all 4-4 and 5-3 fits.

 

This is very much what I would recommend if your style is to open these hands with 2♣. It comes up often and makes handling them much easier.

[nullve]

In this way, all 4-4 and 5-3 major fits can be found when Opener has diamonds.

Except when Opener has 4351 (or 4360*), Responder has a weak hand with 5 H, and the bidding goes 2♣-2♦; 3♠.

 

I can see two obvious solutions to this problem:

 

1) Treat 4351 as balanced.

2) Let 2♣-2♦; 3N = 4351, NF.

 

But maybe there's a standard solution already.

 

* With this shape Opener can probably afford to follow up with 4♥ over 2♣-2♦; 3♠-3N.

[billw55]

I'm playing in 1D unless my opponents balance, which they will regret.

Will they? They have 17 and a double fit.

[helene_t]

4♥ is a control so the auction is not plausible imo. Probably East should be allowed to bid 3♥ on four but then again I think West can raise on 3, so it is not even clear if East should pass it.

 

You need a tool. 2♦ (multi) followed by 3♣ shows diamonds + another suit, now 3♦ asks.

 

Otherwise I open 1♦.

[ggwhiz]

Without any special tools, the auction of 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♦ is usually the worst self inflicted pre-empt to be anticipated and avoided on a hand like this.

 

I can't remember an opening like 1♦ ever going float on shape like this although I'm sure it must have happened a looong time ago.

[Winstonm]

This is the hand that created forcing 1C systems. It is a nightmare for standard methods with 1D risking a missed game and 2C overstating the hand's strength minus a good fit. With that said, playing standard I open 1D and hope.

[mycroft]

Will they? They have 17 and a double fit.

Sure. They're trading 130, 150, whatever, for at least 170, maybe 200, probably something starting with 4.

 

You don't have to go down to regret balancing.

 

I hate 2♣ with two-suiters, because without tools, you get suit agreement at the game level, and no idea if we should go on or not. But sometimes, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

[rmnka447]

No, because after the positive response of 4 ♦, 4 ♥ is a cue showing a control.

 

Yes, you can play second negatives over 3 ♦ here. If you play cheapest suit is 2nd negative over 2 ♣ openers. 3 ♥ here would be a second negative. Then 4 ♥ by opener would show the actual hand held and responder could pass. Some people play cheapest minor as a second negative over 2 ♣ openers. I don't know what they would do over the 3 ♦ rebid as cheapest minor would be 4 ♣.

 

If you don't play some sort of 2nd negative, then you either jump to 5 ♦ as a signoff or invent some bid then preference back to ♦ if possible. If you invent a 3 ♥ call, the problem, as some other's suggest, is that opener may raise on 3 thinking you have 5.

 

I have no problem opening this 3 loser hand 2 ♣.