overcalling with good 5422's

[jddons]

Complete incompetence on the hand editor front.

Anyway this is the East hand.

AQT5

K5

KJ

K7532

 

EW vul,Dealer W,

 

Bidding P, 1H, ?

(opponents playing 4 Card majors, scoring, X-imps)

 

My question. Is there a preferred expert treatment for this type of hand with inflexible stop, poor 5 card suit and shortage in the third suit? I have tended to prefer double and pass partners 2D response hoping for a 5-2 fit.

[helene_t]

I think I would bid 1nt. Not claiming that this is the expert treatment. If they double us I will bid 2♣ (or redouble, if that is our agreement).

 

I think double, 1♠ and 2♣ have merits. I don't think pass (or 2♥ michaels) is reasonable although it could of course work best.

 

Some play 1NT as conventionaly showing 4♠5+m.

 

One problem with 1nt (whether natural or conventional) is that it may wrongside a notrump contract.

[wank]

yes it's a pretty clear double for me. when partner bids 2D he has 5 i'd guess over 80% of the time.

 

you'll miss a lot of 4 spade contracts starting with 1NT and 2C is sickening. plus i'd expect to make a partscore in a suit much more often than 1NT.

[Phil]

Double>1N>>>>>>>1S>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>2C

[Cyberyeti]

Playing the style of overcalls I play, might well overcall 1♠, but double is the normal answer.

[nullve]

1N. But people tend to get away with doubling although they seem to be unprepared for a 1N or 2♦ response.

[SteveMoe]

Double>1N>>>>>>>1S>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>2C

Good with this, but you left out

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Before 2♣.

[MrAce]

1 NT for me.

[Phil]

Good with this, but you left out

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Before 2♣.

 

Or just a few of: >>>>

[Kaitlyn S]

Or just a few of: >>>>

I agree that 2C is my fourth choice by a fairly wide margin. However, it is being treated here as if it's almost as bad as overcalling 2D on the doubleton!

 

My guess would be that:

 

If this hand was played many times, the average result for bidding 2C would be maybe minus 5 IMPs. Yes, that's a lot. But it is not the 2C bid that costs them the 5 IMPs, it's the fact that the players that make that bid are also likely to make bad judgments later in the auction and to throw away more tricks in play and defense than those that double, bid 1NT, or bid 1S.

 

If you forced a true expert (as opposed to a BBO expert) to overcall 2C (assuming that his expert partner realized that this was even an option), that the expected IMP loss would be closer to 1 IMP, and I'd be shocked if it were more than 2 IMPs, whereas the expected IMP loss for overcalling 2D would be massive.

[rmnka447]

I'm also a 1 NT bidder.

[fromageGB]

This strength makes it easy to suggest a natural 1NT. Take away a king, though, and it is more of a decision.

 

IMP scoring (as it is) I would prefer a natural NT, and this hand is OK. Probably better than X in my view as it gets across the strength.

 

MP scoring, if I may take the subject slightly off beam, and I like to play Raptor 1NT (Helene's conventional 4♠+5m) as it is a perfect description. Partner can bid 2/4♠ to play, 2♥ as a strength inquiry agreeing spades, or 2♣ pass or correct. What could be better?

[Phil]

If you forced a true expert (as opposed to a BBO expert) to overcall 2C (assuming that his expert partner realized that this was even an option), that the expected IMP loss would be closer to 1 IMP, and I'd be shocked if it were more than 2 IMPs, whereas the expected IMP loss for overcalling 2D would be massive.

 

There are many really good players that believe making two level overcalls on ratty suits is a sound strategy, namely Ulf Nilsson of Sweden. If you have some free time go to his blog and read about the 'suit quality paradox'.

 

On another hand I might just make the 2C overcall myself on K7xxx but there are 2 or 3 better choices to 2C. I have no idea what Ulf would choose.

 

I hope by the comments Steve and I made that overcalling 2C was not meant to be the mark of a novice, which is what I infer your response to indicate.

[Tramticket]

I'm not sure that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2C was taken to be the mark of a novice .... just the amount of hesitation required before the bid to properly convey the suit quality! :P :P

[johnu]

I agree that 2C is my fourth choice by a fairly wide margin. However, it is being treated here as if it's almost as bad as overcalling 2D on the doubleton!

 

I would assume that if 2♦ was being ranked, there would be at least a beginner's book on bridge worth of pages of ">>>>>>" after 2♣ and before 2♦.

 

In a Bridge World Master Solvers Club problem, I estimate that 2♣ would score a zero, unless somebody on the panel "found" that bid, in which case it would score 20 out of 100 (IIRC, any bid with at least 1 vote scores a minimum of 20). It's hard to score less than zero.

[rmnka447]

This strength makes it easy to suggest a natural 1NT. Take away a king, though, and it is more of a decision.

The strength is what makes this hand an issue because there's no assurance that if LHO passes partner can find a balancing bid, especially VUL.

 

Take away a king, then partner rates to have 9-10 after a LHO pass when opener has a minimum range opener and is more likely to compete. So, on AQ10x xx KJ Kxxxx or AQ10x Kx Jx Kxxxx, pass is a lot easier. Swap the black suits and I'd think you'd find quite a bit of support for 1 ♠ with Kxxxx xx KJ AQ10x or similar because it's harder to penalize and suppressing ♠ isn't great tactics.

 

The danger of bidding 2 ♣ with the actual hand is having opener make reopening double that is passed and going for a number.

[Kaitlyn S]

Swap the black suits and I'd think you'd find quite a bit of support for 1 ♠ with Kxxxx xx KJ AQ10x or similar because it's harder to penalize and suppressing ♠ isn't great tactics.

Would anybody not bid 1S on that hand?

 

EDIT to add: As soon as I hit "submit post" I remembered that there were some players that play this awful treatment that they double with any opening hand. So let me rephrase: Would anybody that plays the game well not bid 1S on this hand?

[rmnka447]

Would anybody not bid 1S on that hand?

 

EDIT to add: As soon as I hit "submit post" I remembered that there were some players that play this awful treatment that they double with any opening hand. So let me rephrase: Would anybody that plays the game well not bid 1S on this hand?

Almost everybody would, but it's hard to be sure that everyone would, hence the weasel words.

[mike777]

Complete incompetence on the hand editor front.

Anyway this is the East hand.

AQT5

K5

KJ

K7532

 

EW vul,Dealer W,

 

Bidding P, 1H, ?

(opponents playing 4 Card majors, scoring, X-imps)

 

My question. Is there a preferred expert treatment for this type of hand with inflexible stop, poor 5 card suit and shortage in the third suit? I have tended to prefer double and pass partners 2D response hoping for a 5-2 fit.

 

great question, non expert answer here.......1s

 

option2=x

 

very close I understand both

 

---

 

Let me back up and say I doubt either answer matters

[Stefan_O]

Is there a preferred expert treatment for this type of hand with inflexible stop, poor 5 card suit and shortage in the third suit? I have tended to prefer double and pass partners 2D response hoping for a 5-2 fit.

 

What exactly do you mean by "inflexible" stop?

 

What would constitute a "flexible" stop?

[mycroft]

Inflexible here means "you don't get a choice on when to play it"; more particularly, "you can't hold up". Same (or more so) applies to singleton A or Qxx into nothing.

[Fluffy]

1NT will avoid trouble in diamonds, and shows strength accurately, only flaw is that a single stopper to a 5+ suit is not ideal.

Double encourages spades, but risks playing in diamonds, and also will struggle to show the strength,

 

I have it hard to decide between both.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&e=saqt5hk5dkjck7532&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=p1h]133|200|

I rank

1. 1N = NAT. Slightly off-shape.

2. 1♠ = NAT. Good suit but a bit short.

3. Double = T/O. Fixed by likely ♥ response.

4. 2♣ = NAT. Poor suit. Dangerous.

5. 1N = ART. Raptor. 5+m 4+OM. Poor honor placement and a bit strong :( Kit Woolsey recommends Raptor over short ♣/♦ because you can show either minor but probably not with hands like this :) [/hv]

[jddons]

What exactly do you mean by "inflexible" stop?

 

What would constitute a "flexible" stop?

 

Mycroft has my meaning exactly; hence a flexible stop would be Axx(x) so that you choose when/if to cut defensive communication.

[jddons]

Thanks for all the opinions expressed. There seems to be a preference for a 1NT overcall, albeit not a strong one. Although the actual hand is not really pertinent to the post, I know that I like to find out what precipitated other peoples posts. [hv=pc=n&s=s8632h6d764caj964&w=sk74h8742da953ct8&n=sj9haqjt93dqt82cq&e=saqt5hk5dkjck7532&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=p1hdp2d2hppp]399|300[/hv]

 

As you see, when North bid again, I, East, decided to go quietly. I led ♦K and continued with♦ J. Partner expecting me to have 3 diamonds won with the A and switched after which 8 tricks were routine for declarer.- 4 IMPs. Of course, an immediate diamond ruff followed by AK♠ and a fourth diamond for a trump promotion would defeat the contract. For EW, 1N is straightforward, 2♣ and 2♦ look more problematic.