Spot the wimp (4)

[ahydra]

MPs, both sides non-vul, spots approximate

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saq9853hqt4daq74c&n=sk42hj952d9ckt9629&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1n(12-14)pp2sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

West opened a weak 1NT. We play 2C = both majors, others natural. What needs to be done differently to reach game?

 

ahydra

[mcphee]

North has an easy spade raise although game is no claimer on a trump lead, you would like the opportunity to play it.

[Cyberyeti]

I think the S hand is an excellent hand although has tenaces under the opener. If N is going to raise, the modern habit of removing 1N whenever possible will come into sharp focus when you go off in 3. S would make the same bid without the A♦, and on ♠Ax and another on winning a diamond, you probably only have 6 or 7 tricks.

 

Is 3♠ in the frame for S ? does it show less than a penalty double, or a hand good enough to double but unsuitable.

[ggwhiz]

I would be in 2♠

 

Especially at mp's I want south to be comfortable balancing aggressively and besides, a trump lead OR a high heart and a trump switch should beat game.

 

So I just spotted the wimp in the mirror

[Cyberyeti]

I would be in 2♠

 

Especially at mp's I want south to be comfortable balancing aggressively and besides, a trump lead OR a high heart and a trump switch should beat game.

 

So I just spotted the wimp in the mirror

 

If the 1N opener is 2344/2353/2335 as is not unlikely, 4♠ is laydown, the real danger is that he is 2443 and a heart ruff is taken (2434 you may survive by guessing whether to ruff down his K♦ or finesse his partner's).

[ggwhiz]

If the 1N opener is 2344/2353/2335 as is not unlikely, 4♠ is laydown,

 

I'll take your word for it but my partners balance here with 1 less spade and/or lots fewer points/controls. Especially to avoid a losing lead, a low club this time.

[wank]

They're both reasonable mp underbids. At imps both could bid on.

[Cyberyeti]

I'll take your word for it but my partners balance here with 1 less spade and/or lots fewer points/controls. Especially to avoid a losing lead, a low club this time.

 

Exactly, and this was the point I was making about the 3♠ raise which I think is very dubious.

 

My question stands, what is 1N-P-P-3♠ and is this the hand for it ? I think it's a touch light, the same hand with ♠AQJ9xx, I'd do it, but that looks more likely than partner raising.

[rmnka447]

There are no wimps as far as I can see. Chalk one up for the weak NT.

 

The fog created by the NT opening makes finding game difficult.

 

The hands fit well to give game a chance, but there's no way to figure out if that's the case.

 

Opposite a weak NT, one does had to be a tad more conservative about competing. The opponents points are more likely more evenly distributed between their two hands which generally makes for a better, more organized defense. Also, responder to 1 NT can pass with a pretty decent hand.

 

Anyway, at MPs, South knows that at most there are only 16 points and as little as 14 points between the North and East hands. If they break anywhere near evenly between the two hands, the most likely result is a ♠ part score. With two tenace positions in front of the opener, 2 ♠ seems right. North can't know raising is right because South can bid 2 ♠ with a bit less than is actually held.

[msjennifer]

Although the hands fit well on seeing all 52 cards,it is very difficult ,if not impossible,to reach 4S on this hand after 1NT ,although weak ,is bid by LHO.Although 2S appears to be an underbid the hand certainly is not enough to bid 3S. North also has no justification to give a raise as South can have much less than what he actually has in a balancing position.A TOD followed by 2S ,if agreed by both partners ,may be playable to show a 2and1/2 spade hand.I have my doubts if any pair plays Astro in a fourth seat.Else if they do then 2D can easily show a spade suit plus a side minor suit .The pair using Astro this way may perhaps reach 4S with the given hands.

[Caitlynne]

Though 4S is NOT cold by any means, yes, I would like to get there.

 

However, as has long been recognized, 1NT is a preemptive bid in that it DOES consume bidding space. Partnerships who play a weak NT tend to think this is an important benefit - among MANY others - of adopting a weak NT.

 

As for preempts, sometimes they are VERY effective and you simply have to pay off to them.

 

Looking at the hands, I think that is one of those times. I think the 2S balance is quite reasonable. Passing a balance of 2S also seems quite reasonable on a 7 HCP hand.

 

It is just a bit unlucky to not get there. But, I suspect, this is not a catastrophe. It may not make on a trump lead or, alternatively, the opponents might engineer a heart ruff to beat it.

[ncohen]

a trump lead isn't likely fatal -- win K, take 2 diamonds ruffs. If trumps are 3-1 or better, you'll take 6 trumps, D A, 2 diamond ruffs, and a heart winner.

 

It's tougher after 3 rounds of hearts, ruffed, and then a trump return. But, assuming E ruffed, he's now out of trumps after returning one, so proceed as before -- cash the 4th heart and ruff two diamonds.

[nullve]

I would have doubled 1N as South. Although the double may nominally be for penalties, it's real purpose to put an upper limit on other calls. Or maybe I'm just out of touch with what people play these days. Anyway, a 2♠ overcall in 4th seat that can be anything from 8 hcp and 5341 to 14 hcp and 6340, looks unplayable to me.

[Kaitlyn S]

Anyway, a 2♠ overcall in 4th seat that can be anything from 8 hcp and 5341 to 14 hcp and 6340, looks unplayable to me.

Defending 1NT doubled on the expected club lead looks unplayable too.

 

It appears to work out okay on this hand but in the long run, I think 1NTx will be a loser. Try giving LHO S-KJx and see how it does.

[SteveMoe]

If 1N is 12-14, then south has a double not a 2♠ call. If west passes, so will north, a forcing pass showing balance of power but denying a 1 or 2-suited hand that could invite or force to game. Assuming East rescues, South can simply rebid a minimum number of ♠ to show a good hand. North has a constructive plus raise. I suspect game would be reached.

 

Check out: http://bridgewinners.com/article/view/taming-the-weak-notrump-part-1/

 

And part 2 too.

[kfd]

I prefer a style in which 2C, showing both majors is competitive. With good hands, I double. If partner leaves it in, I expect a beat.

[nullve]

Defending 1NT doubled on the expected club lead looks unplayable too.

 

It appears to work out okay on this hand but in the long run, I think 1NTx will be a loser.

Maybe you're right. Then how about 3♠ (invitational?) or 2N followed by 3♠ (once upon a time suggesting a strong 2-suiter with spades)?

 

[...] I think 1NTx will be a loser. Try giving LHO S-KJx and see how it does.

This kind of fallacy (sorry!) is a meme here on BBF. Someday someone might say:

 

"I think finessing with xxxxx in hand opposite AQJxx in dummy will be a loser. Try giving RHO the stiff king and see how it does."

[Tramticket]

Defending against a weak NT - our primary objective should be effectively contest the part-score - particularly at MATCH-POINTS. 2♠ spades seems to be a reasonable spot and if I happen to garner 10 tricks I expect to collect more than my share of the match points.

 

I also strongly believe that a penalty-double is wrong on the South hand. Whilst there are many contested auctions where you can shade values in the protective seat, this is not one of them. When you double 1NT in protective seat you know that the opener's values are sitting over you and you know that your partner will be leading blind (and very likely to pick the wrong suit). I might double a little light in 2nd seat if I have a good lead, but I will always have 16+ to double in 4th seat.

[Cyberyeti]

 

This kind of fallacy (sorry!) is a meme here on BBF. Someday someone might say:

 

"I think finessing with xxxxx in hand opposite AQJxx in dummy will be a loser. Try giving RHO the stiff king and see how it does."

 

It's neither a complete fallacy nor completely fair. Take your final statement. Say RHO has opened the bidding and there are only 11 missing points, yes taking the finesse is losing play.

 

Here we know that basically half the missing points and at least 2 spades are sitting over, so it's more likely that KJx (or K10x with the J in dummy) are sitting over than it might be in abstract.

 

That's not actually the main danger of doubling 1N. If they sit it, you're likely to be in trouble. Partner will make a bad lead a very high percentage of the time (often when a spade lead from Jx(x) would have defeated the contract), and you won't have time to recover. Also declarer will know that partner has led a club from say KJxxx when you discard and can place every other honour. Double is not on the menu at all.

[nullve]

Reality check:

 

dealer west

predeal south SAQ9853, HQT4, DAQ74

west1N = hcp(west)>11 && hcp(west)<15 && shape(west, any 4333 + any 4432 + any 5332)

northP = hcp(north)<13

eastP = hcp(east)<12 && spades(east)<5 && hearts(east)<5

condition west1N && northP && eastP

[helene_t]

I don't see any serious alternative to the 2♠ overcall. However, especially at matchpoints w/w and playing 2♠ as the only way to bid a hand with spades only or spades+minor, the range of the 2♠ overcall is very wide. So I don't think it is entirely safe for N to raise. So zero blame to SOuth and very little if any blame to North. Sometimes weak NT works.

[wank]

this situation has, unsurprisingly, come up before.

 

the hand isn't suitable for a double, but it's also rather heavy for 2S. the solution as espoused by certain strong players who frequently play against weak no trumps is to play 2D as a strong overcall in a major (allowing for a rebid to show distributional strong hands over the 2M pass/correct bid) and 2M as being more limited.

[Jinksy]

I also strongly believe that a penalty-double is wrong on the South hand. Whilst there are many contested auctions where you can shade values in the protective seat, this is not one of them. When you double 1NT in protective seat you know that the opener's values are sitting over you and you know that your partner will be leading blind (and very likely to pick the wrong suit).

 

I wouldn't expect P to lead from some holey Qxxx suit after I've Xed. He's looking for my suit/a passive lead, neither of which is wholly dissimilar.

 

Also, as Nullve said, the double helps us a lot should the auction continue - even if 1N is making their way and 2♠ making our way, the opps don't know that. When we have a club void, the chances are good RHO had a club suit that he couldn't run into because it's not 1940. With luck he'll bid it, and now 2♠ shows our hand nicely.

[Cyberyeti]

I wouldn't expect P to lead from some holey Qxxx suit after I've Xed. He's looking for my suit/a passive lead, neither of which is wholly dissimilar.

 

Also, as Nullve said, the double helps us a lot should the auction continue - even if 1N is making their way and 2♠ making our way, the opps don't know that. When we have a club void, the chances are good RHO had a club suit that he couldn't run into because it's not 1940. With luck he'll bid it, and now 2♠ shows our hand nicely.

 

Chances are also good he has enough to sit the double so doesn't bother to remove.

 

Double is good if it doesn't play there, but probably terrible if it does. Partner is very likely to lead his 5 card club suit.

[mike777]

MPs, both sides non-vul, spots approximate

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saq9853hqt4daq74c&n=sk42hj952d9ckt9629&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1n(12-14)pp2sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

West opened a weak 1NT. We play 2C = both majors, others natural. What needs to be done differently to reach game?

 

ahydra

 

 

this one seems pretty simple:

1) I make the bid that promises a 6 card suit/4 loser hand/NV/two suited hand vs wk nt opener.

2) If our system does not have such a bid, change system.

3) If I dont know I would ask Chip Martel for starters, he plays wk nt. Let's not bother to reinvent the wheel.