ATB: Slam missed

[Jinksy]

[hv=pc=n&s=s942hq2daj6cak543&n=sakqt65hdqt2cqt98&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=p1s(14ish%2B%2C%20F1)2h2n(inv%2B%20S%20raise)4h4sp4n5hdppp]266|200[/hv]

 

IMP pairs. No discussion over what the final X showed.

 

(also N was expecting 4-card support for 2N. I suspect it doesn't make much difference here, but say if you think relevant to his decision)

 

Multiple choice poll in case you think both should have acted differently.

[Cyberyeti]

What did the X show, it's normal to play a D?P? variant here.

 

If you're going to show a 4 card raise when you don't have one I much prefer 4♣ fit.

 

Blackwood not a great choice given partner could have ♥xx, 5♣ is better, if they bid 5♥ then X to show a first round control (a fairly normal agreement here in a cue bidding sequence) is exactly what south wants to hear.

[The_Badger]

hi Jinksy,

 

2NT is a dog's dinner of a bid, especially if it promises four(+) card ♠ support - it does matter! - and is an inverted plus values spade raise, presumably game forcing? What does it show? The same as a Jacoby 2NT raise without intervention? More, less, unlimited?

 

If so, why isn't North bidding 5♥ instead of 4♠?

 

So both 7♣ and 6♠ are missed. Hmmm....

 

As I have said to many a player, politely of course, it's no good using an artificial system - Fantunes here I assume - and artificial responses if you cannot use a bit of common sense elsewhere in the bidding. Both at fault here.

[gordontd]

is an inverted plus values spade raise, presumably game forcing? What does it show?

I imagine inv+ means invitaional plus.

[The_Badger]

I imagine inv+ means invitaional plus.

 

Thanks gordontd,

 

You now can have inverted major suit raises, believe it or not, but your interpretation is absolutely right too.

 

If indeed it was invitational, that possibly explains why North bid just 4♠ over 4♥.

[Jinksy]

What did the X show, it's normal to play a D?P? variant here.

 

Undiscussed, as per OP.

 

If you're going to show a 4 card raise when you don't have one I much prefer 4♣ fit.

 

S believed he was showing 3 card support. N believed he had been shown 4. Neither was doing anything wrong in that respect - it just wasn't discussed.

[broze]

Undiscussed, as per OP.

 

 

Then obviously no matter what you might think of any of the other bids making an undiscussed double with a void in the opps' suit is awful.

[Cyberyeti]

Then obviously no matter what you might think of any of the other bids making an undiscussed double with a void in the opps' suit is awful.

 

I would assume DOPI playing with some people, normal pens with others, which is dependent on who I'm playing with, in neither case would I make it on this hand

[masse24]

I would assume DOPI playing with some people, normal pens with others, which is dependent on who I'm playing with, in neither case would I make it on this hand

 

I agree. Additionally, as South, staring at ♥Qx in my hand, letting the double sit would not cross my radar.

[kenberg]

Since I voted "Other", I suppose I should explain.

 

It starts with agreeing to play that 1S-(2H)-2NT is an artificial inv+ bid in spades, without discussing whether it shows three or four. If you had agreed that it shows four, then naturally, or so I assume, S would bid 3C.

 

It's easy to say now, but I also think that if we had not discussed it, I would bid 3C over the 2H. While it is possible that the interference could be at 5H by the time it gets back to me, really I expect to be able to bid 4S at my second turn. When partner hears my 3C and looks at his clubs and his void we will be playing at least 6C.

 

Now how about the later choices, with the bidding as it went? S has shown his three spades (as he sees it), N thinks he has shown four. Bidding 4S doesn't show much extra strength, a little shape is enough. Nonetheless, S wants to make a slam try. He is worried about trump quality so he bids 4NT, but really I think he should worry more about losing the first two hearts. It's tricky because he has two worries, the hearts and the trumps, but I prefer a 5C call. This won't get them to 7C, it is too late for that, but it will, most likely, get them to 6S. N looks at is good trumps and his heart void and figures that if partner is interested he should go.

 

But S bid 4NT, and W bids 5H. Responses are now undiscussed. Yikes. Here we are, playing a non-standard system with a lot of undiscussed bids. I, as N, have made a shapely 4S call expecting it to usually end the auction. Partner has gone on with 4NT anyway. It's hard to believe that he has the values for 4NT but still would pass 5H. So maybe I should pass 5H and then pull the X to 5S? Or maybe I should just jump to 6S. Or maybe I should double, hoping partner can figure it out? I am not so sure that X is or should be any form of D0P1 and even if I think it is will partner also think so and if he does think so then how does he play it? X=0/3, P=1/4, 5S=2 without? I have 2 with. And I have a void. It's impossible that partner will understand the meaning of my double, whatever that meaning actually was.

 

So I have to guess. That's tough. I don't think that I double.

 

 

I don't like to think in ATB terms, but if we are to do it I think playing an unfamiliar system without adequate discussion is the real culprit here.

[neilkaz]

I voted other as I think bidding 3♣ rather than 2NT over 2♥ is obvious and should result in finding a slam.

[wank]

what was north doing bidding 4s over 4h? his hand is much too good. anyway, north's doubly asburd because his partner gave him a 2nd chance and he acted even more negatively. when you hold AKQ of trumps and partner's trying to drive slam you don't reject the offer. yeah i'm assuming x wasn't a blackwood response, because no scheme fits the north hand (dopi, depo and so on).

 

south has bid absurdly on every occasion. wtf was 4nt opposite a sign off with no heart stop (and a trump too few)?

[Cyberyeti]

what was north doing bidding 4s over 4h? his hand is much too good. anyway, north's doubly asburd because his partner gave him a 2nd chance and he acted even more negatively. when you hold AKQ of trumps and partner's trying to drive slam you don't reject the offer. yeah i'm assuming x wasn't a blackwood response, because no scheme fits the north hand (dopi, depo and so on).

 

south has bid absurdly on every occasion. wtf was 4nt opposite a sign off with no heart stop (and a trump too few)?

 

I agree with most of this, but unless you have Schroedinger's ace count one of DEPO and DOPE will probably fit :)

[Jinksy]

Is the plan for those voting for N to pass 5♥ that he then pulls an X (presumably to 5♥?) showing extras?

[kenberg]

Is the plan for those voting for N to pass 5♥ that he then pulls an X (presumably to 5♥?) showing extras?

 

If I were to pass, that would be my plan. I am not so sure I would try it here. For one thing, we are not on the same wavelength on what the 2N showed, and we have no idea of what a double of 5H would mean. I presume that our lack of agreements, and lack of intuitive agreement, has become apparent to us before this hand. This suggests caution with hoping to be understood. But also, I am not really certain that the pass should be forcing. North's 4S really did not show much of anything extra. He is thinking that S has four trump, and with a little shape he might well think 4S is right over 4H but that's it, he is not suggesting the hand is either right for 5S or that 5H should be doubled. Now since the 4S call S has gone on, so maybe that sets up a force. Seems right, but I can't say that I am sure.

 

Perhaps N can reason as follows: "S bid 4NT. Since I have the AKQ of trump I can see why he might be worried about the trump suit. If he is worried about the trump suit but still wants to go on, he must be well stocked in the minors, So I'll bid 6S".

By no means am I confident of this. It occurs to me, that's it.

I honestly don't know what I would do over 5H. I like to think I would have bid 5H over 4H. We have (N believes) ten trump and N has a heart void. Since we are playing this system where 1S limited [Am I correctly understanding the alert of 1S?] my high card points it would seem that 5H over 4H should describe my hand to a T.

[rmnka447]

The main reason slam couldn't be bid is that the double fit in ♣ and ♠ is never disclosed. I agree that South needs to start out with a 3 ♣ bid.

 

There have been at least a couple other threads where responder had a fit for opener, game going values, and a good side suit holding that offered a potential second source of tricks/discards for declarer. As I recall, the forum came down pretty strongly on the side of identifying that secondary source of tricks versus immediately supporting opener's suit in each thread.

 

Here after 3 ♣, if West still bids 4 ♥, North has at least an easy 5 ♣ bid. South can then make a slam try by cueing 5 ♦ (at this level cues ought to be 1st round controls) knowing 5 ♠ can be a resting place. After North cues 5 ♥, South has a choice of slams.

 

The actual 2 NT raise is such a nebulous bid (not even necessarily GF) that everything becomes murky after the opponent's preempt to 4 ♥.

[Kaitlyn S]

OK, lots to discuss in this auction.

 

1S. Good bid!

(2H)

2NT. OK, I just hate 2NT as showing spade support; what do you do with a random 11-count with heart stoppers, and no spade fit? 3C or 3D virtually forces to game. However, given that it shows 4-card spade support, I wouldn't do it. If you think 2NT shows 3-card spade support, what does 1S (2H) 3H show? But if your system says that 2NT shows 3 card spade support and either GF or invitational values, then I can't fault that bid, only players who would make this agreement.

(4H)

4S. No. Your partner apparently bid a Jacoby 2NT or the like. You have a tremendous 4-loser hand. Since pass here is forcing (I'm assuming South showed substantial values with 2NT), and pass followed by a pull of a double is a strong action, I would choose it. If I didn't trust partner to respect my forcing pass, I might bid 5S or 5H depending on my earlier experiences with this partner.

(P)

4NT. If I showed a GF hand with three spades and partner bid 4S, I would respect his decision. The fact that slam is cold is no excuse for not passing. South has an unremarkable opening hand with terrible support and queen doubleton in the opponents' suit. 4NT says: Partner, I heard you bid 4S but I totally don't respect your judgment and am willing to bet you screwed up and get a terrible result when you bid the hand normally. (I know this sounds really arrogant but it's one of my pet peeves when partner just assumes that I don't know what I'm doing and we get a zero because I bid normally. It will be much better for your partnership if South trusts North's 4S call and passes, and then explains nicely after the game that South thought North's 4S bid was an attempt to sign off. On the other hand, if North realizes that South made a call that can only work if North messed up, this partnership is in serious trouble unless they can agree they aren't going to do this anymore.)

Also, I would write reams on the problems of using Blackwood with a useless doubleton - if North shows that one ace (or one key card) is missing, South won't know whether to bid slam or not - this of course assuming that South thinks there is enough strength for a slam.

(5H)

Double. I can only imagine that North was playing some stolen bid convention showing either two key cards or two aces (counting the heart void as an ace, usually a mistake but not harmful on this deal.) Not surprisingly, South wasn't on the same page.

(P)

Pass. Seems like a reasonable guess to me.

 

I apologize if I seem unduly harsh here. It is not a sin for intermediate players to bid badly. It sounds like N-S were more than a casual partnership, so if they can learn from their errors on this deal, it will have been worth it. The sad thing is that if South had guessed to bid 6S instead of passing the double (I'm not sure what would possess him to do that, but let's just say it happened), we would have never heard about the deal and neither partner would have realized that there was room for improvement.

[Phil]

When I play 2N as a good raise I also play 3H as a poor ODR raise. This hand fits the latter - terrible trump, Balanced, and a secondary defensive trump honor.

 

But this probably didn't contribute to the problem.

 

South guessed very well to bid 4N. I guess they had a disconnect on the responses.

[Fluffy]

South should raise 4♠ to 5♠ showing a slam try with no heart control.

[kenberg]

South should raise 4♠ to 5♠ showing a slam try with no heart control.

 

Yes, I was late coming to this but I was sitting around finally got to"oh, how about 5S from South?. That's at his turn right after 4S by N.

Surely the message would be concern about hearts. Of course it is not his only concern but at this point there is only so much that can be covered.

 

Anyway, I agree. I am slow, but I agree.

 

But like just about everyone, I think things got off track with 2NT instead of 3C.