Jump to content

BBF challenge event #3

frank0

By frank0
in BBO Forum Events

 Share

Recommended Posts

gordontd

gordontd

Posted
Posted
However, it would be unfair to people in the Swiss if they tried their chance in KO and also start from the top of the Swiss.

Not "tried their chance" but "earned their place". So, no, I can't agree with you. that they should start below those they had earlier beaten. In fact it might have been better not to have a carry-forward, as is quite common for consolation events. But I only continue it as a discussion, not because I've very bothered about the ranking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Replies 281
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

antonylee
antonylee

I'm already ahead of you :-) http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/75135-bbf-challenge-event-3/page__view__findpost__p__900629 (1-3 against frank0)

olegru
olegru

Sorry for oftopic. When I just moved to New York from Russia and got my first job here I had to send email to several people about errors in script I found. Instead of word "erroneous" I typed "eroge

nige1
nige1

Well played, Olegru! Congratulations!   And Thank you, Frank0 and ovnclylmz

ovncylmz

ovncylmz

Posted
Posted

Not "tried their chance" but "earned their place". So, no, I can't agree with you. that they should start below those they had earlier beaten. In fact it might have been better not to have a carry-forward, as is quite common for consolation events. But I only continue it as a discussion, not because I've very bothered about the ranking.

 

Okay so I have the following question. If things worked as planned and let's say 8 players started Swiss (and played first two matches) while top 16 started playing R16 and following is the standing in Consolation event:

A 32

B 31

C 30

D 29

E 28

F 27

G 26

H 25

 

Now we have players I, J, K, L who lost in R16 and want to join this event. Do you want to see them joining the pack from the top because they were better than these folks in the group stage?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
gordontd

gordontd

Posted
Posted
If things worked as planned and let's say 8 players started Swiss (and played first two matches) while top 16 started playing R16 and following is the standing in Consolation event:

A 32

B 31

C 30

D 29

E 28

F 27

G 26

H 25

 

Now we have players I, J, K, L who lost in R16 and want to join this event. Do you want to see them joining the pack from the top because they were better than these folks in the group stage?

Based on what we do in live events in these sorts of situations I would expect them all to go in the top half of the field, but with their carry-forwarded adjusted to take some account of how they had done in their knockout. We also usually make them play the top-ranking players in the Swiss, so assuming I J K & L are listed in score order, I would have matched A with I, B with J, C with K, D with L.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ovncylmz

ovncylmz

Posted
Posted

Based on what we do in live events in these sorts of situations I would expect them all to go in the top half of the field, but with their carry-forwarded adjusted to take some account of how they had done in their knockout. We also usually make them play the top-ranking players in the Swiss, so assuming I J K & L are listed in score order, I would have matched A with I, B with J, C with K, D with L.

 

Yes, but "the top half approach" makes sense when there are 100+pairs where a big portion of them are completely irrelevant for the title race. So you basically place the drop-ins and give them a chance to win the event if they do quite well. I also cannot imagine a carry-over system for these guys related to their group phase performance. They are losers of the R16 or QF, the previous group performance became irrelevant.

 

Our case, the number of registrants was only 5. And the top VP was 22.6 where drop-ins get 17.1 (5.5VP difference to the top), which I still find quite reasonable. In the first two matches, antonylee did great reaching 54.9VP and the new drop-ins (including me!!) get around 36VP - almost 20VP difference to the top, maybe not even reachable in 3 matches.

 

 

Anyways, this is how I tackled with it for this time - if you have a more clever way of doing this, you can propose the format with full details. This is the first time we use both the Groups&KO format with some Consolation to keep everybody in for a long time, and I think it works well so far. We are open to any improvements for the future - however adding a lot of mathematical calculations into it makes it very complicated, so please keep it simple.

 

Final Note: I would be the person who get the highest amount of damage from the current structure - I had the highest VP in the group stage. But the Consolation event is mainly targeting people losing in the group stage, therefore you can think drop-in addition as a way to diversify the field and add some extra fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
gordontd

gordontd

Posted
Posted

Yes, but "the top half approach" makes sense when there are 100+pairs where a big portion of them are completely irrelevant for the title race. So you basically place the drop-ins and give them a chance to win the event if they do quite well. I also cannot imagine a carry-over system for these guys related to their group phase performance. They are losers of the R16 or QF, the previous group performance became irrelevant.

 

Our case, the number of registrants was only 5. And the top VP was 22.6 where drop-ins get 17.1 (5.5VP difference to the top), which I still find quite reasonable. In the first two matches, antonylee did great reaching 54.9VP and the new drop-ins (including me!!) get around 36VP - almost 20VP difference to the top, maybe not even reachable in 3 matches.

 

 

Anyways, this is how I tackled with it for this time - if you have a more clever way of doing this, you can propose the format with full details. This is the first time we use both the Groups&KO format with some Consolation to keep everybody in for a long time, and I think it works well so far. We are open to any improvements for the future - however adding a lot of mathematical calculations into it makes it very complicated, so please keep it simple.

 

Final Note: I would be the person who get the highest amount of damage from the current structure - I had the highest VP in the group stage. But the Consolation event is mainly targeting people losing in the group stage, therefore you can think drop-in addition as a way to diversify the field and add some extra fun.

My simple solution was mentioned above - no carry forwards to the consolation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
antonylee

antonylee

Posted
Posted

I thought a reasonable way for the carry-forward that leaves a decent chance for the drop-ins would be to give them half of their group stage VPs, plus twice the VPs they would have gotten for the score of their losing QF match (and so on for later entrants). So their group-stage carry-forward is a bit higher than the others, but their QF carry-forward is below average. (But as you said, I won't complain that this format gave me a decent lead :-))

The WBF continuous scale only goes up to 32-board matches (which is already quite a lot for a swiss :-)), so you can either use the formula at http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/55389-wbf-vp-scale-changes/page__view__findpost__p__667202 (there's a link to an app below) or just score the QF as two consecutive 32-board matches. (Yes, I know it's not actually linear. And it doesn't matter for this event, does it?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites
olegru

olegru

Posted
Posted

stephen tu-olegru part 1

http://webutil.bridgebase.com/v2/tview.php?t=ARDCHALLENGE:5201c748.8f3b.11e6.8e99.0cc47a39aeb4-1476139562&u=olegru

13:53 (40 for olegru)

 

stephen tu-olegru part 2

http://webutil.bridgebase.com/v2/tview.php?t=ARDCHALLENGE:5b790497.8f9d.11e6.8e99.0cc47a39aeb4-1476181668&u=olegru

26:22 (4 for stephen tu)

 

stephen tu-olegru part 3

http://webutil.bridgebase.com/v2/tview.php?t=ARDCHALLENGE:2da2dff2.9017.11e6.8e99.0cc47a39aeb4-1476233990&u=olegru

21:41 (20 for olegru)

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ovncylmz

ovncylmz

Posted
Posted

My simple solution was mentioned above - no carry forwards to the consolation.

 

1) Consolation event is mainly for people who couldn't qualify for the KO stage to continue playing in an organized form. Plus, the winner may get 1CP (challenge points - which R16 losers also get 1, QF losers get 2, SF losers get 3, 2nd place gets 5, 1st place gets 7 for seeding of next events).

2) Consolation starts with some type of carryover from groups. Why? Because I want people to take their last matches serious in the groups even if they are not doing great if they want to continue in this event.

3) Normally drop-ins from R16 come after 2nd match of the Consolation. Did not happen this time because of logistics issues, but they need some kind of adjustment to have a chance to catch the top, but should not be at the top - because this is clearly not fair to players in the consolation who already got some carryover but also played some matches in the consolation event. Then drop-ins from QF can come after the 4th match. Same thing for them, they need to start from somewhere, but not at the top. And maybe they play 3 more matches - and someone wins at the end of Round 7.

 

So, there will be some carryover/adjustment/carryforward (whatever you call) for sure. The way Antony says is not bad, but it is still against the spirit of this event. Now think about a person who did very well in the group (let's say 80VP) and also won the R16 with really big difference (20-0 in terms of VP scale) and then lost QF very little (9.9-10.1 let's say). Now whatever you do for this person his carryover/adjustment calculated will be extremely high. For our case, if Antony was not doing this great, maximum VPs would be around 40VP.. This imaginary guy starts with 70VP (80/2+20+9.9).

 

One more time, this event is mainly targeting people who got knocked out in the groups:)

 

Final note: Feel free to read what I wrote multiple times and write whatever you want, I won't explain again - sorry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
gordontd

gordontd

Posted
Posted

LOL - how do you add R16 and QF losers into the tournament?

Assign them all the same score - not a carryforward based on how they have done so far.

Final note: Feel free to read what I wrote multiple times and write whatever you want, I won't explain again - sorry.

 

I'm not asking you to explain. I'm just pointing out that a method in which those who are knocked out sooner get a higher carry-forward than those who are knocked out later is not rational or fair.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
ovncylmz

ovncylmz

Posted
Posted

Assign them all the same score - not a carryforward based on how they have done so far.

 

 

I'm not asking you to explain. I'm just pointing out that a method in which those who are knocked out sooner get a higher carry-forward than those who are knocked out later is not rational or fair.

 

LOL I assigned QF and R16 losers the same score..

 

And NO, the ones knocked out sooner do not get higher carry-forward, SOME do SOME do not.. I explained the rationale behind this tournament - it is NOT a different tournament & the primary players are the people who lost in the group stage. You may agree or not - you cannot call something I did "not rational or not fair" based on your logic without using anything as a base other than your personal opinion.

 

You really need to read what I was saying and learn how to look at the numbers.. You bring the same thing again and again in different ways showing that (a) you cannot process what I am saying (b) you do not read.. Sorry but this really really annoys me..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
 Share
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...