What is 3 Spades

[dickiegera]

[hv=pc=n&e=sa5ha74dqjt85c643&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1c1s2d2s3dp]133|200[/hv]

 

 

 

I was East and I did not wish to bid 3NT with just Ax so I bid 3♠ intending

that to be asking West to bid 3NT if she had a Spade stopper.

 

Partner believed that I was showing a Spade stopper and was asking if she had Hearts stopped

 

 

 

 

Who is correct here?

 

Thank you

[MrAce]

3♠ asks stopper.

If you had it you would bid it yourself. (you did not with Ax, but that is because you believed you need more than that and asked pd)

Cue bids show stopper if opponents have showed 2 suits.

 

For example, in the given auction, change North's bid to 1♥ and South bid 2♠ over your 2♦. Now they bid hearts and spades. Your 3♠ would be showing spade stopper and asking for ♥ stopper. When they did not bid hearts, cueing spades do not ask heart stopper.

[Stefan_O]

Cue bids show stopper if opponents have showed 2 suits.

 

Or could ask for stopper in that case, too, depending on agreement.

[MrAce]

Or could ask for stopper in that case, too, depending on agreement.

 

You could if you agreed.

[Stefan_O]

Partner believed that I was showing a Spade stopper

 

Sounds like she has learnt this from the Gib robots, they will often bid a cuebid showing "likely stopper" rather than NT.

It's totally wrong, however.

[Stefan_O]

You could if you agreed.

 

I actually thought the "default agreement" was asking.

 

Always played that way, and never seen this discussed anywhere....

[MrAce]

I actually thought the "default agreement" was asking.

 

Always played that way, and never seen this discussed anywhere....

 

For NT inquiries, default is asking when they have 1 suit and showing when they have 2.

 

Here are some sources

 

https://www.larryco....nter/detail/233

 

http://fourseasonsbridge.com/harold/BASWCB.pdf

[Stefan_O]

For NT inquiries, default is asking when they have 1 suit and showing when they have 2.

 

Here are some sources

 

https://www.larryco....nter/detail/233

 

http://fourseasonsbridge.com/harold/BASWCB.pdf

 

Hmmm.... thanks, interesting topic :)

 

still wonder why they prefer telling, rather than asking, with two suits... none of them give any valid argument, other than

 

"If Partner has the alternate enemy suit under control, Partner can bid 3 no-trump; confident that both suits are protected."

 

which is actually not a good argument, but rather an "afterthought", afaik see.

[Stefan_O]

I'll illustrate my point with an example :)

 

Let's say the bidding goes,

 

(1C) - 1H - (X) - 2D
(P)  - 3D - (P) - 3S

1C shows 3+clubs, and

X shows 4 spades.

 

Now, is 3S telling or asking?

What do you think? And what does your pd think? :)

 

If you play "asking/telling", it becomes important your partnership is always in agreement if any situation is a 2-suits or 1-suit situation.

If you play "always asking" there is never such ambiguity.

[MrAce]

Hmmm.... thanks, interesting topic :)

 

still wonder why they prefer telling, rather than asking, with two suits... none of them give any valid argument, other than

 

"If Partner has the alternate enemy suit under control, Partner can bid 3 no-trump; confident that both suits are protected."

 

which is actually not a good argument, but rather an "afterthought", afaik see.

 

 

It is about agreement. You can agree to always ask.

You mentioned the default and I told what it is.

I told because if you know the default wrong, which you did, you can have issues when partnering people you are not familiar with.

I personally don't see any issue with agreeing to always ask.

[The_Badger]

hi dickiegera,

 

To me, ideal hand to bid 3♠. With only one suit bid by the opponents, 3♠ is asking for a half-stopper in ♠s, something like Qxx. This rightsides the contract. He will know that you have a stopper in ♥s from your bid.

 

By bidding 3♠, in my personal opinion, you are showing some form of stopper of sorts, but it is a stopper that needs help given that the opponents have bid and supported the suit.

[msjennifer]

As per Super Precision,3S ,if made with NT in mind, denies a guard in H.To ask for a spade guard he bids 3H not 3S. Obviously,opener can not have a heart suit as he would either have bid it or doubled the 2S bid. I give one example( without intervention),

1S-2C

2S-3D. Denies a guard in Heart suit .It also may be an advance Diamond cue bid with S support,( This will be made clear later if responder bids 4S on openers bid over 3D.)

Whether to adopt this method or not ,of course,is upto individual preference or liking.

[Stefan_O]

As per Super Precision,3S ,if made with NT in mind, denies a guard in H.To ask for a spade guard he bids 3H not 3S. Obviously,opener can not have a heart suit as he would either have bid it or doubled the 2S bid. I give one example( without intervention),

1S-2C

2S-3D. Denies a guard in Heart suit .It also may be an advance Diamond cue bid with S support,( This will be made clear later if responder bids 4S on openers bid over 3D.)

Whether to adopt this method or not ,of course,is upto individual preference or liking.

 

Your example with two unbid suits in uncontested auction, is quite a different situation from dickiegera's question, though.

Seems to me your 3D is basically "natural" (perhaps 3+ if no other suitable bid).

Would not be surprised if opener sometimes has a 4 card diamond suit (e.g. AKJTxx x xxxx Ax).

While responder might also be 4-6 or 4-7 i minors with a super-strong slam-interest hand, and rebid his clubs next round.

[GrahamJson]

It seems to me that if you're fishing for 3NT on this hand you may as well bid it yourself. Asking for a half stop will only right side the contract if partner has Qxx. With some other holdings it is better for the lead to come up to the Ax, e.g if partner has QJ or J10x.

[Stefan_O]

3♠ is asking for a half-stopper in ♠s, something like Qxx.

 

Asking for a half stop will only right side the contract if partner has Qxx.

 

"half-stop"... doesn't that mean K singelton, Qx, or Jxx?

 

i.e. two half-stops make a stop? :)

 

Qxx, in my book, is considered a stop (even if may sometimes fail), not a half-stop.

[The_Badger]

"half-stop"... doesn't that mean K singelton, Qx, or Jxx?

 

i.e. two half-stops make a stop? :)

 

Qxx, in my book, is considered a stop (even if may sometimes fail), not a half-stop.

 

hi Stefan_O

 

Well, that's how us Brits (GrahamJson and I) have interpreted a cue-bid in an opponent's suit in the effort to find a secure, or sometimes dodgy 3NT contract :) And as GrahamJson says quite rightly, the half-stopper/stopper (call it what you will) need not be Qxx but something resembling a stop; and yes I agree too, sometimes you will wrongside the contract using this bid.

 

Most slim 3NT contracts will need a double stopper of sorts to succeed as declarer will usually need time to establish a second suit to make the contract. Rarely declarer will be able to run 9 tricks off the top.

 

An interesting point that hasn't been discussed is how to interpret the cue bid if one opponent has bid a suit only, or if that suit has been supported by his partner. It could subtly change the meaning of the bid perhaps - by agreement.

[fourdad]

Are questions that depend solely on partnership agreements really helpful at all?

[kenberg]

Are questions that depend solely on partnership agreements really helpful at all?

 

Yes/no.

Particularly playing on BBO, often there is no prior discussion. That was the case for the OP, I think. Then it is useful to know what the generally accepted default is.

[kenberg]

It could be useful, either on its own or applied to the 3S, to think about what a call of 3H over 2S would be. On this auction, with opener starting with clubs and then supporting diamonds, and with responder not starting with a negative double, it seems unlikely that 3H could be an offer to play in 4H. A reasonable interpretation would be: I can handle hearts, but I have no help at all in spades. You are on your own if you go with 3NT. If that is what 3H means, then it also seems likely that the 3S is something like what OP has, something in spades but concern that it might not be enough. Ax is nice, but it is no guarantee. The point being that Qxx, a bit of a weak stopper on its own, would be just fine in this case. Ax by itself gets knocked out, then you had better have 8 more tricks tricks. Qxx by itsell may take a trick, but again you need 8 more right away. But Ax opposite Qxxx gives you both tricks and timing.

[aawk]

If opponents have a fit it is better to ask for a stopper.

 

The reason is that if you have a stopper in most cases 3nt is safer if you get s lead to then through your hand.

 

Another reason is that bidding 3s to show a stopper give the opponents a chance to confirm a s lead with a double on 3s.