Flat Hand Double

[eagles123]

Let's say love all imps

 

on your right opens 1h. You have a 3343 or 3334 with even honour distribution, no heart stop, and average spots.

 

 

How many points do you need to double?

 

if this changes a lot at different vuls/form of scoring i'd be interested also

 

Thanks

 

Eagles

[ggwhiz]

How many points do you need to double?

 

None of the above

[The_Badger]

hi eagles123,

 

I'd like to pass with this shape and hope that partner balances, but that may be impossible if the opponents get their act together. (And coming in at a higher level is fraught with difficulties.)

 

If I had a ♥ stop I'd be bidding 1NT with 15-17, so 15 would be the minimum I'd countenance a X.

 

If you are flat(tish) I believe you should be an honour trick above the normal level (a good 11HCPs 4144) to X.

 

Vulnerable, or at adverse vulnerability, or matchpoints wouldn't change my decision much: it's dangerous coming in with these sort of hands after an opening bid, so a tad more strength to compensate for lack of shape is required, I feel.

[MrAce]

Let's say love all imps

 

on your right opens 1h. You have a 3343 or 3334 with even honour distribution, no heart stop, and average spots.

 

 

How many points do you need to double?

 

if this changes a lot at different vuls/form of scoring i'd be interested also

 

Thanks

 

Eagles

 

I voted 14 but I can see my self doubling 1♥ with 13 or even a 12 if my 4 card is spades.

[eagles123]

ok - to specify the 4 card suit ISNT spades

[Jinksy]

Assuming not spades, I don't see the point on less than a good strong NT. If P's got anything, we're not missing game. If we X and he gives a positive response, I won't know how to continue.

[MrAce]

Assuming not spades, I don't see the point on less than a good strong NT. If P's got anything, we're not missing game. If we X and he gives a positive response, I won't know how to continue.

 

It would be easy if everything was about playing game or passing the boards out. Unfortunately part scores brings or takes a lot of imps too, If you double with 13-14, you are not bidding game unless pd bids it himself. You will try to get a plus score.

I said 14 because, assume we passed and LHO bids 1♠ and RHO bids 2♥. Now I have no idea how weak or strong my LHO is. It is still a live auction for them. But I would also not be very comfortable if I see 2♥ going all pass and pd holding a 5332 hand that is less than overcall values at 2 level. Had I doubled, we could perhaps make 3 minor when they make 2♥, or we would go down 1 or 2 for a push, we could bring them to 3 level to defeat, or we could get doubled and get -300 instead of - 140.

 

14 is not that bad. After all you probably have more hcps than opener most of the time. I do not see anything going extremely wrong by telling pd that I have an opener and ready for all unbid suits, which is what I have.

[ggwhiz]

You will try to get a plus score.

 

I do not see anything going extremely wrong by telling pd that I have an opener and ready for all unbid suits, which is what I have.

 

Under the stated conditions partner is (almost) always taking you to the 3 level unless they were balancing with spades anyway and sometimes even then. Dummy will be a disappointment.

 

If 1nt comes back to me I will double THEN and hopefully stay at the 2 level.

[MrAce]

Under the stated conditions partner is (almost) always taking you to the 3 level unless they were balancing with spades anyway and sometimes even then. Dummy will be a disappointment.

 

If 1nt comes back to me I will double THEN and hopefully stay at the 2 level.

 

No

 

But I do not think you understood what I said anyway. Pd will not balance 2 something with 6-7 hcp and 5332 minor hand. Had you started DBL he could compete over their 2 M. Let me give you an example.

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sk72h952daj62caq7&w=sqjt6hk7dt985cjt9&n=s93h843dk73ck8652&e=sa854haqjt6dq4c43&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1hp1sp2sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

They make 2♠, you make 3♣. That's 6 imps. Guess what, once in a while you get doubled and bail out 12-13 imps in 1 board. But if you do not compete enough you bail a lot of 6 imps like that. And this type of hands are WAY more frequent than the hands you go down for phone number. See even a 6 hcp 5332 is not a disappointment. This is very normal partscore competition. When you hold 14 hcp, all you need for pd to hold is 5-6 hcp so that they do not have a significant hcp advantage. I did not even construct a big fit for any side.

[ggwhiz]

Fair enough.

 

A touch different hand that goes 1♥ - p - 2♥ passed back to me and I'm in but I admit I lose on this one.

 

My comfort level is not mainstream as my regular pard is a balancing machine and tends to take my direct doubles to the moon.

[MrAce]

You may take the ♣K from North and change it with West's ♥K. Then they make 3♠ and their bidding does not change. However, when you make North hold xx Kxx Kxx xxxxx, and call it the same hand, that is bean counting. Just because they have the same amount of beans and shape does not make them similar. Anyone above intermediate level knows Kxx in front of 1♥ opener is way less valuable than the K on a 5 card suit which happens to be our trumps if we bid it at 3 level.

[jogs]

No

 

But I do not think you understood what I said anyway. Pd will not balance 2 something with 6-7 hcp and 5332 minor hand. Had you started DBL he could compete over their 2 M. Let me give you an example.

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sk72h952daj62caq7&w=sqjt6hk7dt985cjt9&n=s93h843dk73ck8652&e=sa854haqjt6dq4c43&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1hp1sp2sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

They make 2♠, you make 3♣. That's 6 imps. Guess what, once in a while you get doubled and bail out 12-13 imps in 1 board. But if you do not compete enough you bail a lot of 6 imps like that. And this type of hands are WAY more frequent than the hands you go down for phone number. See even a 6 hcp 5332 is not a disappointment. This is very normal partscore competition. When you hold 14 hcp, all you need for pd to hold is 5-6 hcp so that they do not have a significant hcp advantage. I did not even construct a big fit for any side.

Maybe the bidding should go this way.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sk72h952daj62caq7&w=sqjt6hk7dt985cjt9&n=s93h843dk73ck8652&e=sa854haqjt6dq4c43&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1hp1sp2sxp3cppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Most of your points are in the minors.

[MrAce]

Maybe the bidding should go this way.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sk72h952daj62caq7&w=sqjt6hk7dt985cjt9&n=s93h843dk73ck8652&e=sa854haqjt6dq4c43&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1hp1sp2sxp3cppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Most of your points are in the minors.

 

I respectfully disagree.

[rmnka447]

I sort of like Mel Colchimaro's rule for takeout doubles => minimum of 10 HCP plus 1 more point for each card held in the opponents suit.

 

So a 4-3-3-3 takeout double would be a minimum of 13.

 

I like Mr. Ace's example, too. It has nothing in the opponent's suit. If you have a significant holding in the opponent's suit, but not enough to bid NT, then you're probably better off passing. With a 4-3-3-3 hand, you've 2 chances out of 3 that partner will bid one of your 3 card suits. In that case, having xxx and playing a 7 card fit may not be so good.

[kuhchung]

13 is my baseline if i have nothing wasted in hearts

[Phil]

Over 1H (or 1m) I'll make the call with 12.

 

Over 1S it's a little different.

[wank]

13 probably for me