Nebulous 1D (SOLVED)

[nullve]

I've worked on something similar:

 

1♣/1M = modern Precision

1♦ = modern Precision 1♦, 2♣ or 2♦ opening, but 11-13 if bal.

1N = 14-16

2-level = weak preempts

 

1♦-? (basic idea, but expect to find stupid mistakes):

 

P: rare

1♥ = 0-12, either 5+ S or 4S4-H

...1♠ = 3-S3-H / max, 4 S

......1N = 4S4-H or 53(32)¹

.........P = min, 3- S

.........2♣ = max, 3-S5+C

.........2♦ = max, 3-S5+D

............2♥ = 4H1-D

...............P = 3 H

.........2♥ = ?

.........2♠ = max, 4 S

......2♣-2♠ = "0-12, 5+ S"

......Specifically:

......2♣ = Gazzilli: 0-12, either 5+S4+C or 5233 / 10-12, either 5+S4+D or 5+S4+H

.........2♦ = max, relay

.........2♥+ = min, nat.

......2♦ = 0-9, 5+S4+D

......2♥ = 0-9, 5+S4+H

......2♠ = 0-9, 6+ S

...1N = min, 3-S4H

......P = 0-12, either 4S3-H or (optionally) 53(32)

......2♣ = 0-12, either 5+S4+C or 5(32)3

......2♦ = 0-12, either 5+H4+D or 5332

......2♥ = 0-9, 4+ H

......2♠ = 0-9, 6+S3-H

...2♣ = max, either 3-S4H5+C or 1444

...2♦ = max, 3-S4H5+D

...2♥ = max, 5H6+m

...2♠ = min, 4 S

...(...)

1♠ = 0-9, 4(+)S5+H ("Flannery") / 0-12, 3-S3-H / 10-12, 6M3-OM ("IJS") / any GF

...1N = min

......P = 0-12, 3-S3-H

......2♣ = GF relay

......2♦ = Flannery: 0-9, 4(+)S5+H

......2M = IJS: 10-12, 6M3-OM

......(...)

...2♣+ = max.

...E.g. the simple but possibly suboptimal

...2m = max, either 6+ m or 5m4O

......P = m tolerance, weak

......2♦ = 6+ D, weak

......2♥ = Flannery: 0-9, 4(+)S5+H

......2♠ = GF relay

......(...)

...2♥ = max, 4H(441)

...2♠ = max, 4144

...2N = max, 5D5C

1N = 0-12, either 3-S4H or 35(32)¹

...P = min, 3- H

...2♣ = max, either 3-H5+C or 4144

...2♦ = max, 3-H5+D

...2♥ = min, 4+ H

...2♠ = max, 4+ H

...2N = max, 5+D5+C

...(...)

2♣-2♥ = "0-12, 5+ H"

Specifically:

2♣ = Gazzilli: 0-12, either 5+H4+C or 2533 / 10-12, either 5H4+D or 4(+)S5+H²

...2♦ = max, relay

...2♥+ = min, nat.

2♦ = 0-9, 5+H4+D

2♥ = 0-9, 3-S6+H

2♠ = 0-9, 6+m4+Om

2N = 0-9, 5+D5+C

3♣ = 0-9, 3-S3-H3-D7+C

3♦ = 0-9, 3-s3-H7+D3-C

(...)

 

¹ (53)(32) is a (mild) problem shape in this structure if Responder has 0-12.

² [30 Aug 2016:] It's probably better to put 10-12, 4(+)5+H in the 1♠ response instead and play 1♦-1♠; 1N-2♣ = "Flannery or GF".

 

Don't know how to make the 1♦ opening work if it contains 14-16 bal. instead of 11-13 bal., but I might have some ideas.

 

Added, 3 June 2018:

 

 

Possible relay structure (skeletal):

 

1♦-1♠; ?:

 

1N = MIN, not 6+m4+Om

...2♣ = GF relay

......2♦ = BAL or 4(441)

......2♥ = either 1-suited w/ 6+ D or 4M5+D

.........2♠ = relay

............2N = 4H5+D

............3♣ = 6+ D, 1-suited

............3♦+ = 4S5+D

.........(...)

......2♠ = 5m4Om or 5D5C

.........2N = relay

............3♣ = 4D5C

............3♦ = 5D5C

............3♥+ = 5D4C

.........(...)

......2N = 4H5+C

......3♣ = 6+ C, 1-suited

......3♦+ = 4S5+C

...2♦ = weak, Flannery

...2M = IJS in M

...(...)

2♣ = MAX, either 6+ C, 5C4M, 5+m4+Om OR 4C(441)

...P: allowed

...2♦ = GF relay*

......2♥ = 5+m4+Om

.........2♠ = relay

............2N = 4D5+C

............3♣ = 5+D5+C

............3♦+ = 5+D4C

.........(...)

......2♠ = 4C(441) or 5C(440)

......2N = 4H5+C

......3♣ = 6+ C, 1-suited

......3♦+ = 4S5+C

...2♥ = weak Flannery

...(...)

2♦ = MAX, either 4M4+D or 1-suited w/ 6+ D

...P: allowed

...2♥ = weak, Flannery

...2♠ = GF relay

......2N = 4H5+D

......3♣ = 6+ D, 1-suited

......3♦+ = 4S5+D

...(...)

2♥ = MIN, either 2H6+m4+Om or 2+H5D5C OR MAX, 4H(441)

2♠ = MIN, either 2S6+m4+Om or 2+S5D5C OR MAX, 4144

2N = MIN, 1-S1-H6+m5+Om

3m = MIN, 1-S2-H7+m4Om

(...)

 

* If Responder is weak with 3-S3-H5+D2-C, then he may have a problem now. Maybe it was better to respond 1♥ (ostensibly 4+ S) with 3352 or 3361?

 

There are no way to show MAX, 4S4H4+D right now, but maybe MAX, 4441 is a 1N opening and 4450 can be shown as (43)51?

 

[not finished]

 

 

[Kungsgeten]

To me it seems that a canapé style would work best if you want to free up the 2C bid. Also having just one NT range would help in order to have less nebulous openings. Perhaps something like this:

 

1C = 16+

1D = 3+ clubs. May be 12--15 NT / 4C and 5+ other / 6+C. Perhaps 5+C and 4D could open this too.

1H = 3+ hearts. May be 12--15 NT without 3C / 4H and 5+ other / 6+H.

1S = 4 or 6+ spades.

1NT = 4 or 6+ diamonds.

 

The reason for 1D showing clubs instead of diamonds is to have 2C available as a relay over 1NT.

 

Another idea I've been thinking about is to have unbalanced hands with diamonds thrown in with the 1C opening, but I'm afraid that would hurt the contested auction a lot. Part of the idea is that opener can pass the 1C-1D negative when holding diamonds. This was discussed in another thread about the Baltic Club.

 

1C = 16+ or 11--15 with 5+D.

1D = 11--15 with 4+C.

1M = 11--15, 5+M.

1NT = 12--15, may be 4-4-4-1.

[spotlight7]

Precision2D = shape(north, 4414 + 4405 + 4315 + 3415) and hcp(north) >= 11 and hcp(north) <= 15

Action frequency "Precision2D" (Precision2D , 0, 1)

 

Dealer is giving me 0.65%.

 

 

PrecisionL stated that @2% figure.

 

 

 

On 2016 Aug 28 04:44 you posted that x Ax Axxxx KJxxx was a 2D opener.

 

 

Now you state that it shows a major like a multi?

 

 

If you are changing your system without telling us, our replies will become random noise.

[nullve]

On 2016 Aug 28 04:44 you posted that x Ax Axxxx KJxxx was a 2D opener.

No, he didn't.

 

How do you show both minors? What's your rebid with x Ax Axxxx KJxxx or x Axxx xxxxx AKJ after a 1D-1S start?

x Ax Axxxx KJxxx. 2D. If a tad stronger, 2NT.

[Trick13]

PrecisionL stated that @2% figure.

 

On 2016 Aug 28 04:44 you posted that x Ax Axxxx KJxxx was a 2D opener.

Now you state that it shows a major like a multi?

 

If you are changing your system without telling us, our replies will become random noise.

 

If you read the context I was saying that I would respond 2D after 1D - 1S.

[nullve]

x Axxx xxxxx AKJ. I'm opening this 1NT.

How about opening 1N on all quasi-balanced¹ minima, at least those without a 5c major? Would that be too extreme? (I'm trying to come up with a good Weak 1N version of my structure above, and that's obviously easier if the 1N opening covers more shapes.)

 

¹ in Glen Ashton's sense

[straube]

How about opening 1N on all quasi-balanced¹ minima, at least those without a 5c major? Would that be too extreme? (I'm trying to come up with a good Weak 1N version of my structure above, and that's obviously easier if the 1N opening covers more shapes.)

 

¹ in Glen Ashton's sense

 

I've been thinking this is almost forced. How, for example, what would you rebid x Axx Axxxx KJxx after 1D-1H? If you raise hearts partner assumes the strong balance hand or a shapely minimum with four trump. If you rebid 2D this shows much too strong a preference for diamonds when the contract could belong in either minor, hearts, or no trump. So you might as well open 1N and at least get the strength right. Partner knows you can have a singleton and you're making this just more likely.

 

This structure is really just about how to divvy up opening hands between 1D and 1N that in Precision or IMprecision would open 1D, 1N, 2C, or 2D. So it's just math that he's losing a lot of precision with this. He's not going to be able to relay out opener's pattern (which can be done in IMprecision for example).

 

The question is whether using 2C and 2D for preemptive bids is worth it. IDK.

[nullve]

Work in progress:

 

1♦ = min non-QBal Precision 1♦, 2♣ or 2♦ opening (~ rules of 19-21) / max Precision 1♦, 2♣ or 2♦ opening (~ rules of 22-24) / 14-16 bal.

1N = min QBal Precision 1♦, 2♣ or 2♦ opening (~ rules of 19-21 or 11-13 bal.)

 

 

1♦-?:

 

P: rare

1♥ = 0-9, 4S4-H / 0-12, 5(+) S

1♠ = 0-9, either 3-S3-H or 4(+)S5+H ("Flannery") / 10-12, rarely 5 M / any GF

1N = 0-9, 3-S4H

2♣ = Gazzilli: 0-9, either 5(+)H4+C or 5H(332) / 10-12, 5(+) H

...2♦ = max, relay

...2♥+ = min, nat.

2♦ = 0-9, 5(+)H4+D

2♥ = 0-9, 3-S6+H

2♠ = 0-9, 6+m4+Om

2N = 0-9, 5+D5+C

3♣ = 0-9, 3-S3-H3-D7+C

3♦ = 0-9, 3-s3-H7+D3-C

(...)

 

 

1♦-1♥; ?:

 

1♠ = max, either Qbal with either 3- H or 4 S or non-QBal with 3 S / 3 S, QBal

...1N = 0-9, 4S4-H

......P = min, 3 S / max, QBal, 3- S

......2♣ = min, 3 S, not 6+m4+Om

.........2♦ = relay

............2♥ = 34(60)

............2♠ = ?

............2N = 3055

............3m = 3S7+m, 1-suited

......2♦ = 30(64)

......2♥ = max, 34(60)

......2♠ = max, 4 S

......(...)

...2♣ = Gazzilli: 0-9, either 5(+)S4+C or 5S(332) / 10-12, 5(+) S

......2♦ = max, relay

......2♥+ = min, nat.

...2♦ = 0-9, 5(+)S4+D

...2♥ = 0-9, 5+S4+H

...2♠ = 0-9, 6+S3-H

1N = max, QBal, 3-S4H

...P = 0-9, 4S3-H

...2♣ = Gazzilli: 0-9, either 5(+)S4+C or 5S(332) / 10-12, 5(+) S

...2♦ = 0-9, 5(+)H4+D

...2♥ = 0-9, 4+ H

...2♠ = 0-9, 6+S3-H

2♣ = min, not 3 S, not 6+m4+Om

...2♦ = relay

......2♥ = 2-S4+H5+m

......2♠ = 4S5+m

......2N = 2-S5+D5+C

......3m = 2-S7+m, 1-suited

2♦ = 2-S6+m4+Om

...2♥ = inv+ relay

......2♠ = min, 4+D6+C (=> 3m = to play)

......2N = min, 6+D4+C (=> 3m = to play)

......3♣ = max, 2-S4+D6+C

......3♦ = max, 2-S6+D4+C

...2♠ = 0-9, 6+ S

...2N = 0-9, relay

...3m = 0-9, pref.

...(...)

2♥ = max, 4+H5+m, not QBal

2♠ = max, 4+S5+m, not QBal

2N = max, 2-S5D5C

3m = max, 2-S7+m, 1-suited

(...)

 

 

1♦-1♠; ?:

 

1N = max, QBal

...P = 0-9, 3-S3-H

...2♣ = GF relay

......2♦+ = something wonderful

...2♦ = Flannery: 0-9, 4(+)S5+H

...(...)

2♣ = min, not 6+m4+Om

...2♦ = relay

......2♥ = 04(54), 44(50) or 4+H6+m

......2♠ = 40(54) or 4+S6+m

......2N = 5+D5+C

......3♣ = 7+ m, 1-suited

2♦ = 6+m4Om

...2♥ = inv+ relay

......For example:

......2♠ = min, 4+D6+C (=> 3m = to play)

......2N = min, 6+D4+C (=> 3m = to play)

......3♣ = max, 4+D6+C

......3♦ = max, 6+D4+C

...2♠ = Major Flash(!) (Law protected)

...2N = 0-9, relay

...3m = 0-9, pref.

...(...)

2♥ = max, 4+H5+C, not QBal

2♠ = max, 4+S5+D, not QBal

2N = max, 5+D5+C

3m = max, 7+ m, 1-suited

 

 

1♦-1N; ?:

 

More of the same:

 

P = QBal

2♣ = min, not 6+m4+Om

...2♦ = relay

......2♥ = 4 H

......2♠ = 4+S5+m

......2N = 5+D5+C

......3m = 7+ m, not 1-suited

......(...)

2♦ = 6+m4+Om

...2♥ = relay

......2♠ = min, 4+D6+C

......2N = min, 6+D4+C

......3♣ = max, 4+D6+C

......3♦ = max, 6+D4+C

2♥ = max, 4 H

2♠ = max, 4+S3-H5+m, not QBal

2N = max, 5+D5+C

3m = max, 7+ m, 1-suited

(...)

Edited September 2, 2016 by nullve

[Kungsgeten]

If I remember correctly Ice Relay used a nebulous opening similar to his, and so did the Swedish F-Club system (played by Nilsland-Fallenius). Marshall Miles' Unbalanced Diamond is similar, but it removes the balanced hand type.

 

I think that a switch of the 1H and 1S responses could work, where 1H also includes GF relay type hands.

 

1D--1H;

1S = Unbal, no major.

1N = Natural, may have spades.

2m = Minor + hearts

2H = Clubs + spades

2S = Diamonds + spades

2NT = 5-5 minors max

3C = 5-5 minors min

[Trick13]

I've been thinking this is almost forced.

 

Yes it is. I like off-shape with a weak NT (10-12 would be even better - we are trialling that but no discernable improvement, yet). It wouldn't work with a stronger NT. This was just a serendipitous side effect. My original objective was just to simplify by not having bids and sequences reserved for the low frequency 4441s.

 

 

 

How, for example, what would you rebid x Axx Axxxx KJxx after 1D-1H?

 

Yes, I would be sorely tempted to open 1NT with that (to preempt a 1S overcall). With Axx x Axxxx KJxx I would open 1D (because our response structure favours spades), With better playing strength x Jxx AKxxx AJTx I will probably open 1D. In practice I'm not going to have your rebid problem because our 1H response shows spades but that is another story.

 

 

[Trick13]

One draw back of this particular 1♦ opener that I forgot to mention is that YOU LOSE THE OPTION TO OPEN EVERY WEAK HAND 1♦ IN THIRD POSITION.

[mikestar13]

I played Precision for years, first Wei, then the Blue Team variations, then the Sontag version, then...

 

Ah Precision...what has it become? A real hotchpotch of juggled bids that resemble nothing like the original system :(

 

I admit Wei Precision had its faults, nothing major mind you as all bids were clearly defined, but it was easy for beginners to learn and understand. And that's important in bridge I feel.

 

I can understand players tinkering with systems but wholesale rape (for want of a better word) is anathema, I feel. Why keep on calling it 'Precision': just because you open 1♣ with 16+ points?

 

[This is just a personal view, and players can use what systems and conventions they like, but I don't believe any other major bidding system has undergone so many changes in its lifetime.]

 

Maybe because it is good enough to try to improvet? Unlike Standard American, which was not worth the effort until it morphed into 2/1--then that was interesting and worthwhile to try to improve still further.

 

For the purpose of general disclose (say the system line at the top of the system card) I think the characteristics that define Precision are (1) 1♣ strong and artificial, usually 16+, and (2) five-card majors.

 

Of course other details will be disclosed: Does 2♣ require 6, or is 5 cards acceptable? How short can 1♦ be? What is the no trump range?

 

IMHO, small deviations do not make a system "not Precision". For example, an aggressive 1♣ with 15+ or a conservative 1♣ with 17+, or opening 1♥ with 4-4-1-4 shape precisely.

 

OTOH, big deviations are "not Precision": For example, four card majors common. (A big club four card major system can be excellent, but I would definitely class it as "not Precision").

[PrecisionL]

1474149701[/url]' post='898076']

One draw back of this particular 1♦ opener that I forgot to mention is that YOU LOSE THE OPTION TO OPEN EVERY WEAK HAND 1♦ IN THIRD POSITION.

 

Although that was a bone of contention in the World Tournament just concluded in Poland, it is not clear that in ACBL games/tournaments you are not able to open 1D in 3rd position with less than an opening hand.

[PrecisionL]

1474149701[/url]' post='898076']

One draw back of this particular 1♦ opener that I forgot to mention is that YOU LOSE THE OPTION TO OPEN EVERY WEAK HAND 1♦ IN THIRD POSITION.

 

Although that was a bone of contention in the World Tournament just concluded in Poland, it is not clear that in ACBL games/tournaments thatyou are not able to open 1D in 3rd position with less than an opening hand.

[PrecisionL]

1474149701[/url]' post='898076']

One draw back of this particular 1♦ opener that I forgot to mention is that YOU LOSE THE OPTION TO OPEN EVERY WEAK HAND 1♦ IN THIRD POSITION.

 

Although that was a bone of contention in the World Tournament just concluded in Poland, it is not clear that in ACBL games/tournaments that you are not able to open 1D in 3rd position with less than an opening hand.