Encourage or discourage?

[Jinksy]

[hv=pc=n&w=sajht542dkqj8653c&n=st976hj83dt2caj32&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=pp1n(12-14)3dp3nppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Macthpoints. Partner leads the AH. Carding agreements are UDCA, giving attitude on the lead of an AQ, else count. What card do you play at trick 1? What are your considerations?

[SteveMoe]

♥5 - discourage. Partner wants to know if I hold the ♥Q - I don't. If partner wanted to know my count (that is from AKxxx) they would have led the K.

[MrAce]

♥5 - discourage. Partner wants to know if I hold the ♥Q - I don't. If partner wanted to know my count (that is from AKxxx) they would have led the K.

 

You do not have the ♥ 5

 

You are North

[mike777]

[hv=pc=n&w=sajht542dkqj8653c&n=st976hj83dt2caj32&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=pp1n(12-14)3dp3nppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Macthpoints. Partner leads the AH. Carding agreements are UDCA, giving attitude on the lead of an AQ, else count. What card do you play at trick 1? What are your considerations?

 

 

Ok it looks like my options are:

3h=continue hearts

8h=switch to club\\

jh=switch to spades.

 

 

I will ask for club switch.

 

Of course pard is fully expected to use his bridge judgement and expertise to do what he thinks best after my 8h. The 8h is not a demand, just my best suggestion.

[MrAce]

Macthpoints. Partner leads the AH. Carding agreements are UDCA, giving attitude on the lead of an AQ, else count. What card do you play at trick 1? What are your considerations?

 

Pd is likely to be leading from AKx(x). He has another 5-7 hcps on the side. Pd can have ♦A but it is unlikely given that they reached a game at MP with 22 hcp, E must have ♦A for his bid. (Assuming that 3♦ did not show a big hand)

 

In order to take 5 tricks, we need

 

A-3♥+2♣ tricks

 

B-3♥+1♦+1♣

 

C- If pd has KQT(x) ♠ he will play one now and we may score 2♥+2♠+1♣ (this is unlikely too that declarer bid 3 NT with no spade cards unless he has length in this suit)

 

D- 2♥+3♣ tricks

 

We are not in hurry of cashing our 3 ♥ tricks, (assuming that declarer holds Qx ♥) if we are setting them with 3 heart tricks options.

There are 2 big dangers;

 

1-We can not afford pd to shift to spades

2-We can not afford pd to play low ♥ at T2.

 

I would discourage. After all it is easier for pd to imagine Jxx ♥ by me. It is harder for him to play for Jxx ♥ if we encourage. He will assume we have the Q and plan the defense accordingly. It is also easier for pd to figure that IF we have a minor Ace, that is likely to be ♣ from the bidding of E.

 

Ok it looks like my options are:

3h=continue hearts

8h=switch to club\\

jh=switch to spades.

 

 

I will ask for club switch.

 

Of course pard is fully expected to use his bridge judgement and expertise to do what he thinks best after my 8h. The 8h is not a demand, just my best suggestion.

 

 

You can not afford to throw a VERY likely trick for signal. (♥J) Especially at MP. So you are quite wrong with the meanings of your signal options)

[mike777]

ou can not afford to throw a VERY likely trick for signal. (♥J) Especially at MP. So you are quite wrong with the meanings of your signal options)

 

I did not suggest we should play the Jh only what the JH would mean....if you have another way to tell pard to swtich to spades, clearly spades great you did not tell us.

 

 

I stand by what our signal options are.

[alok c]

Discourage.East is marked with ♦A &♥Qx & is likely to hold a ♠Honour in which case the game is making as the finesse is working.Our only hope that South holds ♣K & switches to a club so that North can lead a Heart to set up 3♥+2♣ tricks.

[MrAce]

I did not suggest we should play the Jh only what the JH would mean....if you have another way to tell pard to swtich to spades, clearly spades great you did not tell us.

 

 

I stand by what our signal options are.

 

I know what you meant. But please at least try to understand when someone tells you, even if you could not figure it out yourself.

 

You are assuming (VERY WRONGLY) that pd will know you played J from J8x, or 8 from J8x or the deuce from J8x in order to give him preference.

 

• Partner does not know and will never know that you played J from J8x and not from J singleton or Jx.
• Partner does not know and will never know that you played 8 from J8x and not from 8x or 8xx.
• Partner does not know and will never know that you played smallest from J8x and not from Q8x or Qx

Thus none of those cards will mean anything about your intentions of which suit to shift! Why don't you show some effort to read the OP and what he said about the A or Q leads? And even if you did not bother to read, can't you at least just show some effort to understand when someone shows you, instead of keep on defending something blindly?

 

When pd starts with Ace, and dummy shows up with KQJT or QJT9 of this suit, it would be obvious that the cards you play would be suit preference (in NT) But you are wrongly assuming on the OP hand that pd will figure out that you do not have ♥Q when you play smallest from J8x and will take it as a club preference. Wake up!

[The_Badger]

hi Jinksy,

 

I didn't have a coffee this morning, but aren't those compass points in the illustration out-of-sync :(

 

Having now had a coffee, it's a tough one but I agree with everything MrAce says.

 

Partner could possibly have (though statistically unlikelier) ♥ AKQx, and East has bid 3NT on a wing and a prayer. And you don't want to block the suit if that is the case.

 

Statistically more chance of having an honour card in ♣s, so I'm discouraging with ♥8 with UDCA.

[MrAce]

AKQx ♥ would start with Q in the AQ for attitude K for unblock/count method.

[The_Badger]

AKQx ♥ would start with Q in the AQ for attitude K for unblock/count method.

 

Thanks for that MrAce. I wasn't aware of the finer points of UDCA leading against No Trump contracts. In Britain, before UDCA, the lead of an ace against a no-trump contract demanded an unblock (highest card). Things change, and its good to read these forums as it gives me a modern perspective of what's happening now.

[SteveMoe]

You do not have the ♥ 5

 

You are North

 

♥8

 

Thanks.

[Stefan_O]

What are your considerations?

Hmmm... let me see...

 

1. That it is REALLY HARD to get these things right AT THE TABLE. (might bet my money on the declarer, if I had a choice...)

 

2. Never played a weak-1NT, but seems pd could have any of:

a. AKx   => discourage
b. AKxx  => hmm... if I encourage, will he then continue low...? Not the best...
c. AKQ   => discourage
d. AKQx  => encourage
e. AKxxx => encourage (but... do we open weak-NT w 5-card major...?)
f. AKQxx => encourage

 

So guess I go for... Hmmm..... let me see...

B-)

[MrAce]

Hmmm... let me see...

 

1. That it is REALLY HARD to get these things right AT THE TABLE. (might bet my money on the declarer, if I had a choice...)

 

2. Never played a weak-1NT, but seems pd could have any of:

a. AKx   => discourage
b. AKxx  => hmm... if I encourage, will he then continue low...? Not the best...
c. AKQ   => discourage
d. AKQx  => encourage
e. AKxxx => encourage (but... do we open weak-NT w 5-card major...?)
f. AKQxx => encourage

 

So guess I go for... Hmmm..... let me see...

B-)

 

Pd can not have AKxxx or Q would have dropped on A. And if that is the case you can not cash more than 3♥ tricks without an entry to pd.

Pd can not have AKQxx or he would have led the Q in A-Q for attitude method.

Pd can not have AKQx for the same reason above.

[Stefan_O]

Pd can not have AKxxx or Q would have dropped on A.

 

You mean, it will drop after I play my card, right?

Yes, and then pd will ponder who has the jack => I will wish I encouraged...

 

And if that is the case you can not cash more than 3♥ tricks without an entry to pd.

 

yes... but AK of ♥ leave room for ♣K, too, doesnt it?

[MrAce]

You mean, it will drop after I play my card, right?

Yes, and then pd will ponder who has the jack => I will wish I encouraged...

 

You still don't see it.

 

How will encouraging help when discouraging won't ? Even if pd understood that 3 NT bidder is a moron and made that bid with stiff ♥Q and not playing Q from QJx or QJ9. Let's assume that this is the case and pd understood you and he also has ♣K (otherwise as I said it won't work) Now tell why you would wish you encouraged? What do you think would happen had you discouraged? He will shift to clubs, you will win and play ♥. You will still beat 3 NT if pd has ♣K.

 

You are making list of ♥ holdings for pd who started with A. And writing next to them encouraging or discouraging which one works (wrongly) as if they all have equal weight (wrong)

 

• Pd holding AKxxx is a very small probability due to auction.
• When he holds that, encouraging or discouraging does not matter.

I already told about other holdings (AKQx(x) ) when you thought (wrongly) that encouraging works. Pd can not have those or would lead Q. (according to A-Q for attitude, K for unblock/count agreement)