Go on?

[Jinksy]

[hv=pc=n&n=sahakjt52da7caj93&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=1sdp1np3hp3np]133|200[/hv]

 

MP pairs. What's your next call? Do you agree with the bidding so far? Also, what, in the abstract, do you think you've shown by having bid this way?

[Cyberyeti]

[hv=pc=n&n=sahakjt52da7caj93&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=1sdp1np3hp3np]133|200[/hv]

 

MP pairs. What's your next call? Do you agree with the bidding so far? Also, what, in the abstract, do you think you've shown by having bid this way?

 

You've shown a hand too good to overcall 2♥ and too good to X then bid 2♥.

 

For me this is an X then 2♥, but our simple overcalls can be a lot better than most peoples', make the hearts AJ5432 and we'd prob just overcall 2♥.

 

Can a slam be on, of course, Kxxx, x, Kxxx, Q108x might even make 7♣ given that all 11 points are most likely on your right.

 

I think I'd bid 4♣, but easier if you can bid 3♣ over whatever partner bids over a 2♥ rebid (quite likely 2N).

[Jinksy]

You've shown a hand too good to overcall 2♥ and too good to X then bid 2♥.

 

For me this is an X then 2♥, but our simple overcalls can be a lot better than most peoples.

 

Would X then 2♥ be forcing for you in this auction?

[Phil]

Easy 4C.

[neilkaz]

So much playing strength. I'll make a try for slam with 4C and hopefully PD reads this as a 4 card suit. I'll respect a 4♥ sign off.

[mr1303]

4C must be right now. The difficult question is what we do afterwards. You aren't going to make 6nt on power, so you need a fit. Unless you can get a club raise you have to settle for game I think. So I will raise 5C to 6C but leave 4H.

[SteveMoe]

4♣. 1N shows partner isn't broke. If they have 3 cover cards we are in business.

[The_Badger]

hi Jinksy,

 

Just put that hand into Kaplan & Rubens hand evaluator and it comes out at a whopping 25.55!

 

Steve Moe says 4♣. 1N shows partner isn't broke. If they have 3 cover cards we are in business.

 

However, given your own strength (and that an opponent has opened), what concerns me is that partner may be a little under strength for his 1NT bid, certainly not 8-10. He has been forced to bid and chose the lesser of two evils by discarding a very weak 4 card minor suit bid in favour of 1NT.

 

But I'm bidding 4♣ like many others, yet will proceed with a degree of caution. The hand could be quite distributional - you already know partner has a singleton ♥.

 

Please give us the whole hand, Jinksy, in a day or two's time as I am curious, perhaps like many others. Thanks :)

[alok c]

Pass. Partner is not expected to hold more than 5/6 pts,his 1nt call was forced.Normally he would have passed 3♥ but his 3nt call indicates he may have ♥Q.

[spotlight7]

MP pairs. What's your next call? Do you agree with the bidding so far? Also, what, in the abstract, do you think you've shown by having bid this way?

 

 

I like the X and 3H bid.

 

 

Bidding 1N in reply to a TO X does have higher standards in my style.

 

How often do you make 1N opposite a 1444 minimum hand with the values suggested that responder will hold here?

 

 

My overcall range is @12-17/18 for a 2H overcall, so X and 2Hs would show @17/18+HCP with quality HCP and/or extra shape.

 

 

 

With a random BBO player, I would pass 3N here. I am too likely to get passed out in 4C or have partner bid 4Ds now to now show a 5 card D suit.

[chasetb]

1.) Because of our point value and the 6-card suit, I think X followed by 3♥ is perfectly fine. Now I bid 4♣, this shows 6+ hearts, 4+ clubs, and at least a King more than minimum. I doubt 6♥ is there, but I won't give up on 6♣ so easily, and my suit is good enough to get dropped in 4♥.

[MrAce]

1.) Because of our point value and the 6-card suit, I think X followed by 3♥ is perfectly fine. Now I bid 4♣, this shows 6+ hearts, 4+ clubs, and at least a King more than minimum. I doubt 6♥ is there, but I won't give up on 6♣ so easily, and my suit is good enough to get dropped in 4♥.

 

Are we all sure that 4♣ shows clubs after we already bid 3♥? How would you bid with

 

A

AKQTxxx

xx

AKQ

 

Pd can hold

 

KJxx

xx

QJx

Jxxx

 

or

 

KT9x

xx

Axx

Jxxx

 

I do not know others but to me 3♥ is a 1 suiter hand and already self confirms the trumps, especially over a NT response. Perhaps we should have started 2♥ the previous round, which I would have.

 

You all should consider playing DBL and then new suit over NT response as forcing. Especially if your overcalls are made to 17 hcp, dbl and then suit over NT response should be forcing. 1 NT response is not 0-9 like other responses.

[Cyberyeti]

Pass. Partner is not expected to hold more than 5/6 pts,his 1nt call was forced.Normally he would have passed 3♥ but his 3nt call indicates he may have ♥Q.

 

1N is something like 7-10 here, you bid a suit with less.

[Cyberyeti]

Would X then 2♥ be forcing for you in this auction?

 

Over 1N (7-10 ish) it's game forcing for us, not over other minimum bids.

[msjennifer]

Partners 1NT followed by 3NT shows life.4H or 5 C must certainly be on.Hence I bid 4C.

[ggwhiz]

Would X then 2♥ be forcing for you in this auction?

 

Not for me but it does show a very good hand. Nothing wrong with 3♥ on your auction but should tend to be the boy band, one direction.

 

A 2♠ bid over 1nt might work better in that partner can show shape type stuff and you can bid whatever you choose slowly, clearly on a game force. Mind you in my partnership a 1nt response is NOT a piece of cheese, you have to bid a suit, even a 3 carder with less than 8ish.

[Phil]

Are we all sure that 4♣ shows clubs after we already bid 3♥? How would you bid with

 

A

AKQTxxx

xx

AKQ

 

snip

 

A AKQTxxx xx AKQ is a 4S call after 3N. But maybe A AKQJxx xxx AKQ expresses your point better.

 

I would play 2H as forcing (but not 2m). 3H just says I am not worried about trump.

[MrAce]

A AKQTxxx xx AKQ is a 4S call after 3N. But maybe A AKQJxx xxx AKQ expresses your point better.

 

 

I do not even understand what you tried to say. As you suggested I also play 3♥ means "do not worry about trump" Which makes next bids control.

 

Hand 1 makes slam opposing a ♦ control. Hand 2 does not. Hand 2 needs more than ♦A or KJx even if you guess right.

 

If what you tried to say was AKQTxxx suit is not solid, vs a 1 NT response, I will take it on any given day.

[Cyberyeti]

I do not even understand what you tried to say. As you suggested I also play 3♥ means "do not worry about trump" Which makes next bids control.

 

Hand 1 makes slam opposing a ♦ control. Hand 2 does not. Hand 2 needs more than ♦A or KJx even if you guess right.

 

If what you tried to say was AKQTxxx suit is not solid, vs a 1 NT response, I will take it on any given day.

 

The hand with the doubleton is safe at the 5 level, the one with xxx isn't.

 

It's a lot easier if 2♥ is forcing, then 2♥/3♣ is clubs, 3♥ sets hearts and then 4♣ is a cue.

[MrAce]

The hand with the doubleton is safe at the 5 level, the one with xxx isn't.

 

It's a lot easier if 2♥ is forcing, then 2♥/3♣ is clubs, 3♥ sets hearts and then 4♣ is a cue.

 

And what did you think I said about 2♥ being forcing and about 3♥?

 

And what does 5 level have anything to do with it? Just because Phil said hand 1 should bid 4♠ over 3 NT? You will always be in danger with xxx ♦ at 5 level. I would probably sign off with xxx♦ hand. Because I need KQJ(x) ♦ to make slam. K alone is not enough. KQx is not enough due to being in front of the opener. What will Phil do when pd bids 5♦? It can not be ♦ A and I will explain why.

 

Assuming that you, Phil and me are on same page about the meaning of 3♥, you are way too focused on looking at the strong hand types and missing to see the ocean on the boat. You do not pay attention to what pd did or did not do. What do you think 3 NT over 3♥ means when you told pd that we will play at least 4♥? Please don't tell me choice of games! That means pd does not have first round control in any of the other suits. That also means he has something useful in at least one of the other suits or he would have simply bid 4♥ over 3♥ with nothing.

 

KQJx

xxx

Qxx

xxx

 

Would bid 4♥ over 3♥

 

KJxx

xx

Axxx

xxx

 

Would bid 4♦ over 3♥

 

KJxx

xx

Kxxx

Jxx

 

Would bid 3 NT over 3♥. Then you bid 4♣, he bids 4♦ you now bid 4♠ and he bids 5♥. You do not want to play slam xx vs Kxxx when the opener is behind that K. With KQxx ♦ pd would bid 5♦ over 4♠. That does not mean AK♦, he already denied A of ♦ over 3♥ by bidding 3 NT.

 

All you need is a pd who understand what "setting the trump" means and can use 3 NT as a tool instead of choice of games AFTER you already told him/her which game we will play, if not slam.

[Cyberyeti]

And what did you think I said about 2♥ being forcing and about 3♥?

 

You spoke about 3♥, but my point was that it only meant that IF 2♥ was forcing, which I didn't notice you saying.

 

And what does 5 level have anything to do with it? Just because Phil said hand 1 should bid 4♠ over 3 NT? You will always be in danger with xxx ♦ at 5 level. I would probably sign off with xxx♦ hand. Because I need KQJ(x) ♦ to make slam. K alone is not enough. KQx is not enough due to being in front of the opener. What will Phil do when pd bids 5♦? It can not be ♦ A and I will explain why.

 

Again, it matters vastly if 2♥ is forcing, if it isn't, how do you bid a bigger hand with worse hearts, partner can happily suggest 3N in that case with a stiff heart.

 

Assuming that you, Phil and me are on same page about the meaning of 3♥, you are way too focused on looking at the strong hand types and missing to see the ocean on the boat. You do not pay attention to what pd did or did not do. What do you think 3 NT over 3♥ means when you told pd that we will play at least 4♥? Please don't tell me choice of games! That means pd does not have first round control in any of the other suits. That also means he has something useful in at least one of the other suits or he would have simply bid 4♥ over 3♥ with nothing.

 

KQJx

xxx

Qxx

xxx

 

Would bid 4♥ over 3♥

 

KJxx

xx

Axxx

xxx

 

Would bid 4♦ over 3♥

 

KJxx

xx

Kxxx

Jxx

 

Would bid 3 NT over 3♥. Then you bid 4♣, he bids 4♦ you now bid 4♠ and he bids 5♥. You do not want to play slam xx vs Kxxx when the opener is behind that K. With KQxx ♦ pd would bid 5♦ over 4♠. That does not mean AK♦, he already denied A of ♦ over 3♥ by bidding 3 NT.

 

All you need is a pd who understand what "setting the trump" means and can use 3 NT as a tool instead of choice of games AFTER you already told him/her which game we will play, if not slam.

 

Not sure exactly what 3N is in standard, for us it's a diamond cue (we use NT to substitute for the most expensive cue in this sort of auction), and I'd bid 3♠ over 3♥ on all 3 of your hands as we cue 2nd round controls as standard.

[MrAce]

You spoke about 3♥, but my point was that it only meant that IF 2♥ was forcing, which I didn't notice you saying.

 

 

Again, it matters vastly if 2♥ is forcing, if it isn't, how do you bid a bigger hand with worse hearts, partner can happily suggest 3N in that case with a stiff heart.

 

 

 

Not sure exactly what 3N is in standard, for us it's a diamond cue (we use NT to substitute for the most expensive cue in this sort of auction), and I'd bid 3♠ over 3♥ on all 3 of your hands as we cue 2nd round controls as standard.

 

Are we all sure that 4♣ shows clubs after we already bid 3♥? How would you bid with

 

 

I do not know others but to me 3♥ is a 1 suiter hand and already self confirms the trumps, especially over a NT response. Perhaps we should have started 2♥ the previous round, which I would have.

 

You all should consider playing DBL and then new suit over NT response as forcing. Especially if your overcalls are made to 17 hcp, dbl and then suit over NT response should be forcing. 1 NT response is not 0-9 like other responses.

 

You can use 3 NT the way you want. The one I suggest happens only when 1 of the partner shows a power house and a solid suit. At these auctions I strongly suggest the one I wrote. Where one side is in total control of the auction and it is impossible for the weak hand to know exactly what pd needs. It also keeps you below 5 level when 2 aces are missing and/or makes you know grandslam is out of question so you continue your auction focusing on slam only. It also helps (knowing your side has all the keycards at 4 level) you to more effectively investigate grands in further cues.

[Jinksy]

Are we all sure that 4♣ shows clubs after we already bid 3♥? How would you bid with

 

A

AKQTxxx

xx

AKQ

 

Pd can hold

 

...

 

KT9x

xx

Axx

Jxxx

 

I take the point about 2♥ being better as a GF (and therefore 3♥ as setting suit), but it doesn't seem that easy to construct hands where slam is both good and actually biddable. For eg, on the two above, opener would have at best something like QJxxx J98x KQJT -. To most people I would guess that's not an opening bid - not sure about you :P - (and I had to make trumps split badly to give opener any value at all from his J♥).

[rmnka447]

This seems like a tough call for me.

 

3 ♥ is a virtual GF after 1NT as partner has to have at least some values to bid NT. Over a lowest level suit reply which could be on absolutely nothing, it would be game invitational to the extent that it suggests "if you have any excuse to do so, please bid game." An A, K, or fit would be enough. Partner has made a choice and bid 3 NT. I'd expect partner to have at most a singleton or void in ♥. With a doubleton ♥ and some positive feature, it would seem normal to bid 4 ♥ or make a cue rather than bid 3 NT.

 

Assuming partner has something like J10xx or Q10x as a minimum stopper, what can opener have for an opening bid? At best, it would seem like opener has ♠ KQ at most. So, opener ought to have something like KQ in one minor and possibly some points in the other. But it could be that opener has some rule of 20 opener like KQxxx xxx KQJx x or a psyche, and slam is still a possibility. OTOH, the more partner has in ♠, the stronger opener is likely to be in the minors.

 

I'm probably passing and sitting for 3 NT as the most likely positive. A duck in hearts will be odds on to yield 8 tricks out of your hand even opposite a void (4-3 break 62%-).

[MrAce]

I take the point about 2♥ being better as a GF (and therefore 3♥ as setting suit), but it doesn't seem that easy to construct hands where slam is both good and actually biddable. For eg, on the two above, opener would have at best something like QJxxx J98x KQJT -. To most people I would guess that's not an opening bid - not sure about you :P - (and I had to make trumps split badly to give opener any value at all from his J♥).

 

KQxxx Jxx AJxx x is opener for you? Make the spade void in strong hand then AKQxx xx AJxx xx is opener for you? Easy to construct hands. You are just focusing on the wrong place where I gave NT bidder KTxx ♠ instead of JTxx ♠ where K was not a trick to me in slam.