4th suit round-force only -- what are the issues?

[Vampyr]

 

1H 1S

2C 2D (4S 1RF)

??

 

 

 

Well, you can bid "Fifthr Suit Forcing" which is, I think a raise of the fourth suit. But I don't know what the continuations are.

 

How does opening 1NT range affect 4th suit auction issues?

[miamijd]

Well, you can bid "Fifthr Suit Forcing" which is, I think a raise of the fourth suit. But I don't know what the continuations are.

 

How does opening 1NT range affect 4th suit auction issues?

 

A raise of the fourth suit generally shows 4 cards in that suit (4441 or 5440). After all, responder could actually have 4-5 of the fourth suit. It's also forcing to game in any system. But it is definitely not artificial. Otherwise, you lose the 4S. For example:

 

1D 1S

2C 2H

??

 

You have to have a 3H bid available in case partner is 54 or 55 in the majors.

 

4S 1RF v GF used to be a debate, and about 50% of 2/1 players played each way. But that debate has pretty much been settled, and almost everyone plys 4S as GF nowadays. To your second question, however, if you play a strong club, then 4SF one round works very nicely, because opener is limited, so you don't have the slam investigation issues. Opening NT range doesn't matter so much.

 

Cheers,

mike

 

Cheers,

mike

[Vampyr]

A raise of the fourth suit generally shows 4 cards in that suit (4441 or 5440). After all, responder could actually have 4-5 of the fourth suit. It's also forcing to game in any system. But it is definitely not artificial. Otherwise, you lose the 4S. For example:

 

1D 1S

2C 2H

??

 

You have to have a 3H bid available in case partner is 54 or 55 in the majors.

 

Yes I know, so I was dubious about the idea and it turns out I was wrong. One Internet site I found says that the fourth suit is a puppet to the next suit up, and that next suit bid directly is the "fifth suit", artificial and forcing to game. Apparently this only operates when the first three suits are below the level of 2♠, which stands to reason, but also the fourth suit must not be spades.

 

The article only gave examples of 1/1 auctions, and I would think that for any player the fourth suit after a 2/1 auction would be game forcing.

[petem]

When I sit down to play with a new partner, I usually play 4SF to game. We check the box, and move on. However, this approach handles a class of hands poorly: when responder has an invitational hand, and no stopper in the fourth suit (typically with a 5-card major). The "who needs a stopper?" folks have no problem.

 

Eddie Kantar advises playing 4SF one round, invitational or better. His rule is that, if responder bids at the 3-level, it becomes forcing to game. I have been playing this way in established partnerships for years, and it really works. (Incidentally, I play the same rule after new minor forcing.) Some details:

 

-- Opener cannot afford to make a simple rebid when holding a game-going hand. Jump raise responder's major or bid 3NT when appropriate.

 

-- Opener may not have any suitable bid other than two of responder's major on a doubleton.

 

-- Responder may be slamming in opener's minor, and not have a 5-card major.