4th suit round-force only -- what are the issues?

[Stefan_O]

Since I've always been playing 4th suit round-force (+showing extra values), and never felt I had much (if any) issues with that approach, just curious what people perceive are the drawbacks?

 

I am again talking abt the sits where responder bids 1-over-1, and next round 4th suit on the 1- or 2-level.

 

Would be interested if some could give some situations/hands they feel are problematic?

[helene_t]

My main problem is that I don't know what it means. Does opener have to jump in response to fsf in order to force? Suppose opener doesn't jump: does responder have to jump then in order to force? Or do you have a rule like e.g. 2nt or 3m by either partner can be passed but 3M and 4m not?

 

I can't imagine any such agreement to be efficient but more importantly I have never discussed it in details with any partner so whenever a partnet insists on playing one round force it makes me nervous whenever I use fsf with a slamish hand - how can I be sure partner won't pass me in a part score in 3rd or 4th round?

[ahydra]

1D-1S

2C-2H (4th suit F1)

2S-?

 

This auction poses some questions that need sorting out:

1) is 2S forcing? I think it makes some sense to play it as forcing to 2NT.

2) what does 3S show? what about 2NT vs 3NT?

3) how does responder show slam interest in his suit now that opener showed 3-card support? There are two options I guess: 3H followed by 4S, or one of the 4m bids (probably 4C since if responder had SI in clubs he could bid that the second round, c.f. the corresponding sequence where opener has opened a major and responder has 3-card support with a lot of strength).

 

Better go e-mail my partner... I'm pretty sure we've agreed on (1) and (2) but not (3).

 

I think 4SF one round is playable if you agree these kinds of follow-ups, but if not, you may have to guess/punt/put your bidding cards down firmly so partner knows it's forcing ;) on some hands. There's also going to be loss of definition on some slam hands but I think that's a minor issue compared to working out which sequences are forcing vs nonforcing.

 

ahydra

[Stefan_O]

My main problem is that I don't know what it means. Does opener have to jump in response to fsf in order to force? Suppose opener doesn't jump: does responder have to jump then in order to force? Or do you have a rule like e.g. 2nt or 3m by either partner can be passed but 3M and 4m not?

 

I can't imagine any such agreement to be efficient but more importantly I have never discussed it in details with any partner so whenever a partnet insists on playing one round force it makes me nervous whenever I use fsf with a slamish hand - how can I be sure partner won't pass me in a part score in 3rd or 4th round?

 

I'd say the rules comes quite logically...

In the vast majority of cases, responder bids 4SF simply because he is invitational or stronger, and either lacks a stopper in the unbid suit or has a 5-card suit (checking if opener has 3-card support).

So obviously, 2NT from both players shows minimum and can be passed out -- if you have extras, you jump to 3NT instead.

 

If opener rebids his first suit over 4SF, it also shows minimum and can be passed.

 

A different case is when responder has a 6-card suit and game-strength. He uses 4SF, then rebids his own suit, which is always GF without jumping (ex 1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠),

since with an invitational hand he would jump-rebid in the second round (1♥-1♠-2♣-3♠), rather than 4SF.

 

Other than that, 4SF always shows extra values, so if responder first bids 2-over-1 (SAYC-ish), then 4SF, it is GF.

If opener reverses, 4SF is GF.

And 4SF on the 3-level, logically, is GF.

[Stefan_O]

1D-1S

2C-2H (4th suit F1)

2S-?

 

This auction poses some questions that need sorting out:

1) is 2S forcing? I think it makes some sense to play it as forcing to 2NT.

I agree with you. But if I was unsure, I would jump to 3S, just to make sure :) -- now having described my hand very well, and responder will q-bid if slam-interest.

 

2) what does 3S show? what about 2NT vs 3NT?

2NT .. since responder was not interested in 3-card support and is limited, logically, 2NT would show the invitational without stopper.

On the other hand, opener has indicated singelton in the unstopped suit, so this seems very rare (half-stopper perhaps?). But probably, you dont need it at all :D

 

3) how does responder show slam interest in his suit now that opener showed 3-card support? There are two options I guess: 3H followed by 4S, or one of the 4m bids (probably 4C since if responder had SI in clubs he could bid that the second round, c.f. the corresponding sequence where opener has opened a major and responder has 3-card support with a lot of strength).

 

Yes, with slam-interest, repeating the 4SF or just start q-bidding is logical.

[Stefan_O]

I'd say the rules comes quite logically...

In the vast majority of cases, responder bids 4SF simply because he is invitational or stronger, and either lacks a stopper in the unbid suit or has a 5-card suit (checking if opener has 3-card support).

So obviously, 2NT from both players shows minimum and can be passed out -- if you have extras, you jump to 3NT instead.

 

If opener rebids his first suit over 4SF, it also shows minimum and can be passed.

 

A different case is when responder has a 6-card suit and game-strength. He uses 4SF, then rebids his suit, which is always GF without jumping (ex 1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠),

since with an invitational hand he would jump-rebid in the second round (1♥-1♠-2♣-3♠), rather than 4SF.

 

Other than that, 4SF always shows extra values, so if responder first bids 2-over-1 (SAYC-ish), then 4SF, it is GF.

If opener reverses, 4SF is GF.

And 4SF on the 3-level is, logically, GF.

 

Also, if responder does 4SF, then supports opener's second suit, it's also GF (ex 1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-2NT-3♣), since with invitational he would have raised, instead of using 4SF (ex 1♥-1♠-2♣-3♣).

[Stefan_O]

I think 4SF one round is playable if you agree these kinds of follow-ups, but if not, you may have to guess/punt/put your bidding cards down firmly so partner knows it's forcing ;) on some hands. There's also going to be loss of definition on some slam hands but I think that's a minor issue compared to working out which sequences are forcing vs nonforcing.

 

Somebody message'd me, people play 4SF=GF, just "because they are too lazy"... (to learn a few details)

Maybe there is some truth to that, then! :D

[manudude03]

The problem with one round force is it makes life too difficult if opener has extras. For example:

 

1H-1S

2C-2D

3S

 

What do the various 4-level bids mean now? If cuebids, how do you show support for clubs or hearts. If natural, how do you agree spades and find out about controls? It is particularly important when playing MPs where you really don't want to commit to a minor unless you have to.

[jogs]

The problem with one round force is it makes life too difficult if opener has extras. For example:

 

1H-1S

2C-2D

3S

 

What do the various 4-level bids mean now? If cuebids, how do you show support for clubs or hearts. If natural, how do you agree spades and find out about controls? It is particularly important when playing MPs where you really don't want to commit to a minor unless you have to.

When I played 4SF not forcing to game, it was only not forcing to game if the next bid was 2NT.

[manudude03]

When I played 4SF not forcing to game, it was only not forcing to game if the next bid was 2NT.

 

Usually when a pair played 4SF as 1RF, 2M is passable, hence the problem in the auction I provided.

[jogs]

I like forcing to 2NT or 3 of a minor(only after a 2NT bid).

[Stefan_O]

The problem with one round force is it makes life too difficult if opener has extras. For example:

 

1H-1S

2C-2D

3S

 

What do the various 4-level bids mean now? If cuebids, how do you show support for clubs or hearts. If natural, how do you agree spades and find out about controls? It is particularly important when playing MPs where you really don't want to commit to a minor unless you have to.

 

Yes, that's the situation ahydra referred to above.

Makes sense to have opener's 2S-over-2D forcing to 2NT, then responder can clarify.

[manudude03]

If you play that opener's 2S is forcing, then what does responder do with 5 spades and invitational values? If that is a 3S bid, then what about with slam interest? ahyda's suggestion of 3H then 4C might not be available.

[Jinksy]

If you play that opener's 2S is forcing, then what does responder do with 5 spades and invitational values?

 

2N? With 3154, opener should rebid 2♠, not 2♣.

[Stefan_O]

If you play that opener's 2S is forcing, then what does responder do with 5 spades and invitational values? If that is a 3S bid, then what about with slam interest? ahyda's suggestion of 3H then 4C might not be available.

 

After opener's 2S:

3C is GF/slamtry with club-support,

3S is invitational with 5 spades,

4C/4D is slam-try, q-bid with 5+spades

[Stefan_O]

2N? With 3154, opener should rebid 2♠, not 2♣.

 

I assume you mean 3514.

 

But for me, I dislike direct raise of a 4-card suit with only 3-card support.

Pd tends to become overly optimistic, when he expects a 4-4 fit but only gets 4-3 (and the next time maybe overly pessimistic when it turns out I then have 4 :huh:).

 

3514 is what manudude's sequence primarily shows, of course.

[Jinksy]

I assume you mean 3514.

 

Yep.

 

But for me, I dislike direct raise of a 4-card suit with only 3-card support.

Pd tends to become overly optimistic, when he expects a 4-4 fit but only gets 4-3 (and the next time maybe overly pessimistic when it turns out I then have 4 :huh:).

 

I also find agreements go badly when my partner is not playing them, but I rarely think of it as a compelling reason for not taking them up.

[Vampyr]

Somebody message'd me, people play 4SF=GF, just "because they are too lazy"... (to learn a few details)

Maybe there is some truth to that, then! :D

 

Well, I don't know about that. Using the secondary jumps as invitational makes sense because then you keep lower on the better hands, and also it seems that the invitational jumps don't come up very often. So it's very rarely that bidding space is wasted after three suits have been bid.

 

To be honest, though, there was a time when I played 4SF to game only if it was on the three-level or responder had reversed. I don't remember having serious problems with it. It's probably more important to play the method that makes you happy. Some feel relaxed when they have established a GF early -- I mean, look how popular 2/1 GF is in some parts of the world!

[msjennifer]

I would like to invite every friend's attention to "the theory of fourth suiting forcing at least for one round "in the "Super Precision By Belladonna and Garozzo"published quite some years back.They give the following interpretation on the fourth suit bid as under,

A) A genuine suit.OR

B)A cue bid with support in one of the two suits bid by the opener.OR

C) Denying a guard in the suit for NT.

Whether it was A, B,or C is made clear by his bid on the next round.Opener bids NT with a NT

 

guard in the fourth suit.

It is easy for Precision system players where 1DHS are limited to 11/15 HCP. to adopt to this scheme.Any Standard System players can easily fit the same in their system as I personally do.

In the book it is made explicitly clear that," Opener NEVER bids the fourth suit for the © mentioned above

At a personal level,I have found this method of interpreting the fourth suit bid by responder as the least confusing method

[Stefan_O]

I also find agreements go badly when my partner is not playing them, but I rarely think of it as a compelling reason for not taking them up.

 

After auctions like 1X-1♠-2♠, I dont think the issue is so much abt "following your agreement" really...

 

It works OK when responder happens to have a 5-card suit,

but it's just too darn hard to evaluate your hand properly, when you dont know if we are looking at a 4-3 or 4-4 fit.

In borderline cases you are not sure what strain... are we pondering a possible 3NT or a 4♠ contract?

 

Even worse when opps get into the bidding and you consider competing to the 3 level or not....

 

Therefore I just bid naturally, esp in an uncontested auction.

If they intervene, luckily, support-doubles come in very handy...

[Stefan_O]

I would like to invite every friend's attention to "the theory of fourth suiting forcing at least for one round "in the "Super Precision By Belladonna and Garozzo"published quite some years back.They give the following interpretation on the fourth suit bid as under,

A) A genuine suit.OR

B)A cue bid with support in one of the two suits bid by the opener.OR

C) Denying a guard in the suit for NT.

Whether it was A, B,or C is made clear by his bid on the next round.

 

I am missing the frequent case when responder has a 5-card major and just want to probe for 3-card support...

maybe these guys are smarter than me, at handling an NT contract with a 5-3 major fit, though :)

 

Opener NEVER bids the fourth suit for the © mentioned above

 

I did not understand that sentence, sorry...

could you give an example?

[msjennifer]

As far as playing a Standard System,We have found a simple solution which any beginner can practice ."ANY NEWSUIT BID by the Responder at THREE level is absolutely forcing to game".It may also be a slam ambition bid,which will be clear by his next round bid,inviting cue bids up the line.

[msjennifer]

I am missing the frequent case when responder has a 5-card major and just want to probe for 3-card support...

maybe these guys are smarter than me, at handling an NT contract with a 5-3 major fit, though :)

1H-1S

2C-2D

2S shows 3 cad support.3514 hand

2NT Shows no 3 card support .and at least Kx in diamonds.1534 or2524 hand.

Without a three card support and without a diamond guard he just bids 2H

With Ax,Kx orQx in spades and noD guard he bids 2 S.

Openers 4 suit bid is always natural,

1D( may be only xx and 11/12HCP)-1H

1S-2C(this is not 4th suit since 1D was not a suit.)

2D - This is now a natural 5 card (almost usually 5+) Diamond suit , although it is also the 4 th suit.

 

 

 

 

I did not understand that sentence, sorry...

could you give an example?

[Vampyr]

As far as playing a Standard System,We have found a simple solution which any beginner can practice ."ANY NEWSUIT BID by the Responder at THREE level is absolutely forcing to game".It may also be a slam ambition bid,which will be clear by his next round bid,inviting cue bids up the line.

 

Many people prefer, eg, 1♣-1♠-2♠-3♦ to be a game try.

[miamijd]

There are problems with either approach.

 

The trouble with forcing only one round is that the 4S bid has to do too much work. It shows hands anywhere from an invite to a slam force, from a big fit to no fit. The biggest issue comes in investigating slam. Opener ends up having to jump to game on a lot of hands with 16-17, where you could have a slam if responder has a good hand, too. But now there is no good way to investigate.

 

For example:

 

1D 1H

2C 2S (one round force)

4H

 

3H wouldn't be forcing, so opener has to bid 4H. Now what happens when opener has 17 and responder has 15 and slam is icy. Responder can't move, because opener could have a bad 14 or so, so 5H isn't safe. Opener can't do more than bid 4H, b/c responder could have 11.

 

If you say "Oh, but that's a reverse by responder, so it's a GF" then how about this one:

 

1H 1S

2C 2D (4S 1RF)

??

 

Opener has: x AKxxx AQx QJxx

 

2NT isn't forcing, so you have to bid 3NT, which shows 14-21. That may be the right spot most of the time, but then what is responder to do with:

 

Axxxx xx Kx AKTx

 

6C is a fine spot here. But how in the world can responder bid over 3NT? Opener didn't have to have that strong a hand, and 9 tricks could be the limit (as it is, you only make 10 in NT; take out the Qd and opener still has a GF but you're down to 9).

 

It's a whole lot easier if the bidding can go:

 

1H 1S

2C 2D (4S GF)

3NT (15-17 unbalanced)

 

Now 3NT is 15-17 with shortness. With 12-14 or 18+ you bid 2NT (and then you bid on over 3NT with 18+). With the balanced hand, you'd have opened 1NT. And with 2524, you make the default 2H rebid (which does not guarantee 6 here).

 

So responder knows opener should be exactly 1534 with 15-17. It's pretty easy for responder to bid 4C, and now you hit your slam.

 

There are a whole lot of auction like this.

 

Cheers,

mike