Bidding opposite a pre-empt

[spil]

I'm not sure what 'Other ' might be:)

[eagles123]

i think for sure we have to bid 3n - preempting at these colours shows a good hand and way too often we'll miss a vul game if we pass

[Cyberyeti]

i think for sure we have to bid 3n - preempting at these colours shows a good hand and way too often we'll miss a vul game if we pass

 

Depends on your preempting/opening style, most of the hands where game is good would be opened 1 by us. There is a serious danger that partner has say xx, x, xxx, KQJ10xxx and you lose the first 9 or 10 tricks for more than opps game which they might not have bid anyway.

[Manastorm]

Pass. Both majors are almost wide open. Opponens aren't going to lead safe and wait for you to cash 7 clubs.

[1eyedjack]

Close, but I think that it just about meets the 40% test, at least the way I play pre-empts at vul v non. Hope they don't double, mind.

[billw55]

edit: misread the situation

[Vampyr]

I'm not sure what 'Other ' might be:)

 

4♣ I guess.

[The_Badger]

When I posted this comment, 5 had chosen 'Pass' and 5 had chosen '3NT' and that about sums it up. Even I cannot quite make my mind up over this.

 

3NT will possibly stop the opponents from balancing, but there again it could go down heavily. If you get doubled there's always 4♣ as a cop out. Pass looks wimpy but is sensible as there's no guarantee the opponents have game or will bid game, but it makes it easier for the opponents, especially non-vulnerable, to come in.

 

Given that pre-empts are getting flakier and flakier these days, even at adverse vulnerability, and especially in 1st position, I'm with Cyberyeti (see comment) on this one as that's a solid pre-empt, so Pass it's going to be, reluctantly.

[ggwhiz]

3nt here but only because of agreed partnership style on what a 3♣ bid looks like on this seat and vul. Needs some luck to make but very rarely goes out the door (partner has clubs with a diamond card and both majors are foul).

 

Fast pass playing with anyone but my regular partner.

[mike777]

3nt will run if they double.

 

I expect the passers are assuming a pretty poor hand from partner, the bidders a much stronger hand.

[Cyberyeti]

3nt will run if they double.

 

I expect the passers are assuming a pretty poor hand from partner, the bidders a much stronger hand.

 

It's not the strength assumed, but that denied, if KQJxxxx and an ace or king is a 1 opener for you, then you're shooting at a pretty narrow target if you assume R/G partner will have a decent suit.

[mike777]

It's not the strength assumed, but that denied, if KQJxxxx and an ace or king is a 1 opener for you, then you're shooting at a pretty narrow target if you assume R/G partner will have a decent suit.

 

 

exactly if that is a 3c bid which it is at this vul then try 3nt.

 

 

Of course if you open with KQJxxxx and an outside K that is a pretty wide ranging one level opener...

[steve2005]

If partner has outside ace and KQ♣ you have nine top

If partner has outside King or worse you either have 5 top losers in the majors or on a ♦ lead or possibly switch for -1

[Phil]

I've heard a rumor that plus scores are nice at IMPs. 3N looks incredibly spewy to me.

[spil]

Many seem to be assuming that we have 7 club tricks.

Is Kxx x Qx QJTxxxx not acceptable as an opener or Axx x xxx KJTxxx or any other number of hands where we don't have 7, or even 6, guaranteed running club tricks.

We are not cold for 3NT opposite a very sound 1 club opener eg Kxx Kx Qx KQJxxx, although we have all been in worse.

Opener actually held AT x JTxx KJT9xx...When clubs didn't come in and JH was wrong that was 5 off.

Admittedly oppos now have a very good 4H contract and no double of 3NT is possible in practice.

Nevertheless I think 3NT, if bid to actually make, is optimistic beyond words...if bid tactically then I have sympathy...vulnerability be damned.

Perhaps my standards for pre-empting are too loose:)

[billw55]

Many seem to be assuming that we have 7 club tricks.

Is Kxx x Qx QJTxxxx not acceptable as an opener or Axx x xxx KJTxxx or any other number of hands where we don't have 7, or even 6, guaranteed running club tricks.

We are not cold for 3NT opposite a very sound 1 club opener eg Kxx Kx Qx KQJxxx, although we have all been in worse.

Opener actually held AT x JTxx KJT9xx...When clubs didn't come in and JH was wrong that was 5 off.

Admittedly oppos now have a very good 4H contract and no double of 3NT is possible in practice.

Nevertheless I think 3NT, if bid to actually make, is optimistic beyond words...if bid tactically then I have sympathy...vulnerability be damned.

Perhaps my standards for pre-empting are too loose:)

For me, at unfavorable vulnerability, opening preempts should be a solid suit and 7 cards. The actual hand does not qualify. The conclusion is that to make a good choice here, you must understand your partner's preempt style. This is unlikely to be the case with a pickup partner, so I pass.

[msjennifer]

If my partner is not too modern or too unscientific and since I am an aggressive bidder i bid 3 NT and should make it comfortably.I will stay put if doubled.If 3NT goes down I

I won't mind it and shall discuss after the deal is over.

[kenberg]

Many seem to be assuming that we have 7 club tricks.

Is Kxx x Qx QJTxxxx not acceptable as an opener or Axx x xxx KJTxxx or any other number of hands where we don't have 7, or even 6, guaranteed running club tricks.

We are not cold for 3NT opposite a very sound 1 club opener eg Kxx Kx Qx KQJxxx, although we have all been in worse.

Opener actually held AT x JTxx KJT9xx...When clubs didn't come in and JH was wrong that was 5 off.

Admittedly oppos now have a very good 4H contract and no double of 3NT is possible in practice.

Nevertheless I think 3NT, if bid to actually make, is optimistic beyond words...if bid tactically then I have sympathy...vulnerability be damned.

Perhaps my standards for pre-empting are too loose:)

 

I am assuming 7 club tricks and I am bidding 3NT to make. "Assuming 7 club tricks" does not mean that I am certain, but I do regard it as very likely. Of course that only brings me up to 8. I need a little luck but I have been kind to the unfortunate and the universe owes me.

 

Anyway, 3NT.

 

And I am not that big on 3C at these colors holding Kxx x Qx QJTxxxx. If my lho plays 4H, as well he might, I don't really want partner to start the defense by laying down the club ace. Nor am I sure I want any club lead except maybe the K, and I am not so sure I want to suggest to declarer that if trumps don't split it is apt to be me who is short. I don't go ballistic if partner opens 3C on this, but as his partner I am not going to bid on the assumption that he has done so.

 

Partner's 3C opening makes everyone guess. I guess 3NT.

 

Added: I think the main danger is not the lack of nine tricks but rather that they may take the first five.

[forgo]

IMPS always 3nt

[forgo]

just read others and saw hand... player who opens 3 clubs in first seat unfav vun does not understand game!!

[ggwhiz]

just read others and saw hand... player who opens 3 clubs in first seat unfav vul does not understand game!!

 

That's a touch strong but passing and (hopefully) being able to back in with a club bid or a direct 3♣ bid are both legitimate styles. You just have to be aware and in a casual or evolving partnership you aren't.

[mike777]

Many seem to be assuming that we have 7 club tricks.

Is Kxx x Qx QJTxxxx not acceptable as an opener or Axx x xxx KJTxxx or any other number of hands where we don't have 7, or even 6, guaranteed running club tricks.

We are not cold for 3NT opposite a very sound 1 club opener eg Kxx Kx Qx KQJxxx, although we have all been in worse.

Opener actually held AT x JTxx KJT9xx...When clubs didn't come in and JH was wrong that was 5 off.

Admittedly oppos now have a very good 4H contract and no double of 3NT is possible in practice.

Nevertheless I think 3NT, if bid to actually make, is optimistic beyond words...if bid tactically then I have sympathy...vulnerability be damned.

Perhaps my standards for pre-empting are too loose:)

 

 

NOt close to a unfav 3c opener, at the very least tell us you open this type of hand before you give the problem so we are all on the same page. YOUr examples are just plain silly. Please feel free to bid however you wish but if you post a problem at least let the rest of us in on the joke.

[miamijd]

Depends to some extent on your agreements with partner.

 

Is Ax xx xx KQJxxxx a 3C bid or a 1C bid?

 

Is x xxx xx KQJTxxx a 3C bid red v white 1st seat?

 

How about Axx x xx QJTxxxx?

 

There are no right and wrong answers to these questions, but if you haven't discussed this with your partner, then you basically have to guess what to do here.

 

And even if you answer those questions 3c, no, and no, it still might not be right to bid 3NT. You have a 10-card fit (partner shouldn't bid 3C on a six-bagger red vs white), so the opponents should have at least a 9-card fit. That means partner likely has a red-suit singleton (or a spade void). If it's hearts, the opponents could easily run 5-6 tricks (or not, maybe RHO will have the Jack). If it's diamonds, then your partner is going to have to have Kc and an outside Ace to make. If he has a spade void, the opponents generally are going to take at least the first 5 tricks, and maybe the first 10 if both majors lie badly.

 

In a pickup, I probably would try 3NT vul at IMPs (but pass at MPs or NV at IMPs). Since my partner and I tend to be very aggressive preemptors with respect to 3C and 3D bids, I probably would cross my fingers and pass in my regular partnerships.

 

Cheers,

mike

 

 

 

Cheers,

[mike777]

Posters, including the last above discuss agreements, what are our agreements, if none tell us.

 

This issue really makes people mad so mad they quit bridge because they think bridge is full of cheaters.

 

 

The opp dont know your agreements, they dont know if you have none when you are required to have something, some agreements.

 

This issue really ticks off a lot of people and makes them think bridge is full of secret agreements and full of cheats.

 

You preemept, you have a secret agreement, you cheat, yet you win.

 

Now to be fair perhaps many of these guys dont cheat, they just play random bridge and their partner guesses well enough to win.

 

perhaps such issues should not make players mad but over the decades, many decades I can attest it does.

[wank]

Many seem to be assuming that we have 7 club tricks.

Is Kxx x Qx QJTxxxx not acceptable as an opener or Axx x xxx KJTxxx or any other number of hands where we don't have 7, or even 6, guaranteed running club tricks.

We are not cold for 3NT opposite a very sound 1 club opener eg Kxx Kx Qx KQJxxx, although we have all been in worse.

Opener actually held AT x JTxx KJT9xx...When clubs didn't come in and JH was wrong that was 5 off.

Admittedly oppos now have a very good 4H contract and no double of 3NT is possible in practice.

Nevertheless I think 3NT, if bid to actually make, is optimistic beyond words...if bid tactically then I have sympathy...vulnerability be damned.

Perhaps my standards for pre-empting are too loose:)

 

partner's vul against not. he has at least 7 clubs, often 8.

 

that partner didn't have 7 on the actual deal, just means that partner needs to readjust his idea of what an adverse vul pre-empt shows.