inverted minors with 5m-4M

[jimmyg010]

We play transfer Walsh (1C=2C+ bal, may have 5D or 5C+/(441)=4 unbal) and our 1D opening promises an unbalanced hand with 5D+ or 4441. Playing inverted minors, should 1D-2D always deny a 4 card major? I would say yes, but am uncertain about hands with 4M-5D and GF values.

 

What about playing better minor? The same question goes for both minors: can 1m-2m contain 4M-5m with GF values?

[The_Badger]

hi jimmyg010,

 

Traditionally a 1♣ - 2♣, or 1♦ - 2♦ raise is not a GF, but a one round force that promises no 4 card major.

 

Obviously, if you choose to you could play it differently - I surmise. However, I would always like to search for a 4-4 major suit fit, than a 5-3, or even 5-4 minor suit fit, as it will be played at a level lower for game, except if you opt for 3NT, and that the second minor suit could provide discards, crucial to make a major suit game or that essential overtrick.

[jimmyg010]

Thanks for your reply, Badger.

 

We do play that inverted minors are invitational or better, so may or may not have GF values. With a 4 card major, invitational hands always bid the major first regardless of a longer minor (either the other minor or opener's), which I believe is standard.

 

However, I was wondering about those specific hands where you have:

- a 4 card major and a strictly longer minor,

- that minor is opener's minor,

- GF values.

[apollo1201]

A champion and theorician in my country (Alain Levy) advocates a GF inverted minor raise that might have a 4-cd major. He obviously has ways to recover it. Invitational hands (w/o majors) go 1D-3C and 1C-2D in his system. There might be articles about it on the web but in French...

[apollo1201]

A champion and theorician in my country (Alain Levy) advocates a GF inverted minor raise that might have a 4-cd major. He obviously has ways to recover it. Invitational hands (w/o majors) go 1D-3C and 1C-2D in his system. There might be articles about it on the web but in French...

[Fluffy]

After working on my strong club system, I finally decided that 1♦-2♣ is GF and can't have 4M, while 1♦.2♦ is inv+ and denies 4cM. It is mainly because the extra space that gives 1♦-2♣-2♦ which allows for a fluent description of responder's hand.

 

For people unfamilair with strong club, a 1♦ opening is mostly "uncolored" opening, it shows nothing but no 5cM and no 6♣. So it is normal for both bids to work exactly the same.

[Cyberyeti]

My experience:

 

If the opening bid promises 4, it's simple enough to allow inv+ and 4M

 

If it doesn't, allowing one of the above is OK

 

That said, I play a weak NT so 1♦-2♦-2N is GF

 

1♣-2♣-2♦ as the artificial enquiry is very useful if 4M is a possibility

[kenrexford]

This frustrated me for years. Without going into why, I understand your issue. A convention gave me great relief, so I will share. Golady 2C.

 

After either minor opening, 2C is artificial, a GF or limit raise (just GF if also criss cross). Denies a 5 card major, but could have both 4 card. Will typically have 4+ in Opener's minor.

 

So far, you solve the first issue, wanting to establish a game force.

 

Opener then rebids one under. For example, 1D-2C-2D shows hearts. Responder agrees hearts in that sequence by bidding 2H.

 

There was a lot more to it. But it is very easy to actually use. I described it in my book on cuebidding. If you want to know more just ask.

[kenrexford]

This frustrated me for years. Without going into why, I understand your issue. A convention gave me great relief, so I will share. Golady 2C.

 

After either minor opening, 2C is artificial, a GF or limit raise (just GF if also criss cross). Denies a 5 card major, but could have both 4 card. Will typically have 4+ in Opener's minor.

 

So far, you solve the first issue, wanting to establish a game force.

 

Opener then rebids one under. For example, 1D-2C-2D shows hearts. Responder agrees hearts in that sequence by bidding 2H.

 

There was a lot more to it. But it is very easy to actually use. I described it in my book on cuebidding. If you want to know more just ask.

[GrahamJson]

Whenever I have played inverted minors it has not denied a four card major. If it did it makes it more difficult, not easier, to fing major suit fits. This is because if you respond in a major and then support the minor, other than simple preference, opener knows that the major must be at least five cards so can support with three, or even two.

 

I've never been keen on the idea of bidding a four card major before a longer minor, except when forced because of insufficient values to respond at the two level. This style may work in expert hands, when there are detailed arrangements for showing relative suit lengths (e.g. 2NT relays) but lacking such arrangements it just makes it more difficult to bid simple hands accurately. As an aside, I have the same view regarding weak jump responses (e.g 1D-2S). Again, unless you have detailed methods for showing strong hands I think it much more sensible to play jump responses as traditional game forces.

[Phil]

Over your 1c, it makes no sense to play IM, since 1C is really just noise. Just make a forcing call in your longest suit, even if it's clubs.

 

Over an unbalanced 1D, when you hold 4M 5D, there's a really good chance that RHO is getting in or LHO is about to make a big bid. And if they dont, partner is likely short in your major anyway.

 

On some level, it probably makes sense to have an array of fit jumps in anticipation of this.

[jimmyg010]

Thank you all for your replies.

 

 

Phil: "Over your 1c, it makes no sense to play IM, since 1C is really just noise. Just make a forcing call in your longest suit, even if it's clubs. "

 

Since 1C is only 2+ we employ different methods: 1D=H; 1H=S, 1S=no major; 1NT=5C+ GF; 2C=5D+ GF. Both the latter bids may contain 4 card majors. Opener completes the transfer with a weak NT and 2 or 3 cards, everything else is natural: 1C-1NT-2M-3M finds a major fit (and a 9 or 10 card club fit!).

 

Our 1D opening is always 5 unless 4441, with responses 1M=nat; 1NT=6-9 no major; 2C=5C+ GF (or 3334), may have 4 card major; 2D=inv+ 4D+ (3D if 3334 not GF). Just a question of whether 1D-2D allows a 4 card major or not.

 

Though standard is to deny a 4 card major, I don't see a problem with this when GF. Currently we have no agreements after 1D-2C and 1D-2D; everything is natural and I don't see any problems (though I haven't played this much yet). Shouldn't be too hard to miss a major fit: 1D-2C-2M-3M and 1D-2D-2M-3M finds them quite easily. We don't even have a meaning for opener's rebid of 2NT yet as he can't be balanced.

 

---

 

I suppose one issue is after 1D-2D-2M, how does responder show the difference between a invitational hand and GF? I guess after 1D-2D-2M, 2NT and 3D are always invites and the two remaining suits are GF and possibly not real suits.

[Phil]

 

I suppose one issue is after 1D-2D-2M, how does responder show the difference between a invitational hand and GF? I guess after 1D-2D-2M, 2NT and 3D are always invites and the two remaining suits are GF and possibly not real suits.

 

You're hitting on the important points. If 1D 2D is limit plus it becomes awkward to include a 4 card major unless 2D is GF.

[jimmyg010]

You're hitting on the important points. If 1D 2D is limit plus it becomes awkward to include a 4 card major unless 2D is GF.

 

Maybe you're right. Suppose opener has 5D-4S and responder 5D-4H. It might go something like 1D-2D-2S-3H-3N/4D etc. Whereas if you bid the major first, 1D-1H-1S-..2C? Then I guess diamonds on the next round. This might be better and keeps the bidding lower.

 

Swap the majors around so opener has 5D-4H and responder 5D-4S. The auction would be 1D-1S-2D-...? 2H looks like a real suit, so 3C is your only bid. Now you're very high and haven't shown any diamond support. However going through 1D-2D-2H-2S... makes it clear there's no fit much sooner, so diamonds must be the trump suit and you're already game forced.

 

What to do :P

[Phil]

Maybe you're right. Suppose opener has 5D-4S and responder 5D-4H. It might go something like 1D-2D-2S-3H-3N/4D etc. Whereas if you bid the major first, 1D-1H-1S-..2C? Then I guess diamonds on the next round. This might be better and keeps the bidding lower.

 

Swap the majors around so opener has 5D-4H and responder 5D-4S. The auction would be 1D-1S-2D-...? 2H looks like a real suit, so 3C is your only bid. Now you're very high and haven't shown any diamond support. However going through 1D-2D-2H-2S... makes it clear there's no fit much sooner, so diamonds must be the trump suit and you're already game forced.

 

What to do :P

 

These arent unique problems to an unbalanced D. A few ideas:

 

Reverse Flannery solves the 5S 4H opp 4H 6D dilemma.

 

Some like to play 1D 1M 2D 3D as a one round force.

 

Better yet, play transfers or artificial rebids by opener after a 1D opening. Very common to play 1D 1M 2C = diamonds and wide ranging.

 

I wouldn't be concerned holding 4H after 1D 2D 2S since opener won't have hearts.

[Finch]

There are various solutions. We play that 1D-2D can only have a 4-card major if it is slam-invitational opposite a weak NT. But I've also played that any inverted raise can have a 4-card major if it is game forcing. Opposite 1C, we generally show a 4-card major if we have one because the T-Walsh continuations give so much space that you can show a club fit easily enough later, and about 80% of the time opener has a weak NT anyway.

 

It's a bit messy to try and fit invitational hands wiath a 4-card major into the inverted raise.

[Caitlynne]

My most frequent partner and I have the exact same opening bid and response structure that you describe and we play that responder should not make an inverted minor suit raise with a 4 card major.

[jimmyg010]

My most frequent partner and I have the exact same opening bid and response structure that you describe and we play that responder should not make an inverted minor suit raise with a 4 card major.

 

OK. What about 1C-1NT and 1C-2C, which are forcing to game with 5C+ and 5D+ respectively, can these contain 4 card majors in your system?

[rrlass]

Somewhere along the line, it became a "rule" that you should always bid up the line and bid a four card major over a minor opening? Why? We play inverted raises as forcing to game, and they may contain a four card major. We use the other minor as checkback. (e.g. 1♣-2♣-2♦ asks for a four card major) We use jump shift in other minor as a limit raise, and this bid cannot have a 4 card major. We also play 1♣-2M= 4♠ & 5♥ 6-9 or 10-12, and use Flannery responses over the bid. We have had no trouble finding major suit fits, and it simplifies the bidding enormously. Contact me if you want more info.

[gnasher]

Playing transfer responses to 1♣, it's fairly easy to fit in the 4M-5m hands if you make the 1♠ response two-way:

 

1♣-1♠ = no major, or FG with 5♦

1♣-1NT = clubs, invitational+

1♣-2♣ = diamonds, exactly invitational.

 

After 1♣-1NT:

2♣ = 11-14 balanced without 4 clubs. Then 2♦ = any game-force; 2♥+ = natural NF.

2♦ = minimum with 4 clubs, forcing to 3♣.

2NT = 18-19 balanced

Other 2♥+ = natural with clubs, game-forcing

 

After 1♣-2♣:

2♦ = minimum. Then 2♥+ = natural NF

2NT = 18-19 balanced

Other 2♥+ = natural with clubs, game-forcing