2C I suppose

[kenberg]

These thoughts about a reverse interest me. If an auction begins 1C-1M-2D I think of the 2D as a bit suspect. People get dealt strong hands with strong clubs, hands where they are comfortable bidding to 4C, and maybe not much in diamonds. What else can they do but fake a reverse into diamonds.

 

I have always avoided faking a reverse into the majors. With enough caution, I suppose it could work: 1D-1S-2H-3H. Opener trusts responder to have four hearts and therefore five spades. If a 3S call now tells responder to forget about that heart call, what opener really has is three spades and long diamonds, this could work.

 

Of course responder will not always have four hearts, and didn't on this hand. People have varied ideas about what happens after a reverse. In my view, responder with five spades but no diamond support rebids 2S (not to be passed). With four spades and diamond support, responder bids 3D (gf) or 2NT->3C, intending to bid a passable 3D. With both diamond support and five spades and non-minimal values I think the gf 3D is better, after which opener bids 3S with three card support just in case responder has five. With a minimal hand, five spades and diamond support then responder still seeks a fit with 2S, he can always get out later in 3D if needed.

 

So maybe this can work with 1D-1S-2H also, but I have a reluctance to fool around in the majors. With enough discussion I suppose it can work but I have not had such discussions with anyone online, and rarely if ever with f2fs.

 

Here, 2C seems right. It will work out usually, and would have worked out very well with the actual hands.

[Caitlynne]

I don't agree that bridge is 90% judgment. Such claims are often made after we have erred in analysis! This, for example, was not a judgment hand, but rather an analysis hand.

 

You have a 10 trick hand (or pretty close to it), so it is never right to open 1D. You can never catch up if partner responds (as you correctly realized) and you should feel ill if it gets passed out in 1D.

 

Hands like these are why the bridge gods decided that a system must include a forcing opening bid. If it is 2C in your system, this is a 2C opener.

 

Notice that, if you happen to be playing 2D waiting (so that 2H or 2S promises a 5+ card suit headed by at least the KQ), this will enable you to reach the virtually cold grand slam.

[kenberg]

I don't agree that bridge is 90% judgment. Such claims are often made after we have erred in analysis! This, for example, was not a judgment hand, but rather an analysis hand.

 

You have a 10 trick hand (or pretty close to it), so it is never right to open 1D. You can never catch up if partner responds (as you correctly realized) and you should feel ill if it gets passed out in 1D.

 

Hands like these are why the bridge gods decided that a system must include a forcing opening bid. If it is 2C in your system, this is a 2C opener.

 

Notice that, if you happen to be playing 2D waiting (so that 2H or 2S promises a 5+ card suit headed by at least the KQ), this will enable you to reach the virtually cold grand slam.

Yes, of course I have noticed that a 2C opening leads to 7S. I have mentioned this more than once. But why do you say this is system? I had 2C available to me, partner would have responded 2S and there we are. I opened 1D. This is what I mean by judgment versus system. System allowed for 2C-2S, my (mistaken) judgment let to 1D-1S.

 

I cannot recall the last time I got a bad result and then said "Well if only we were playing the Zebra convention we would have prevailed". I can easily recall lots of hands where in bidding or in play better judgment would have produced better results. This is one of them. I recently went down in a 3H contract I could have make if I simply follow the clues from the auction. There was a recent hand where, on defense, I can place the diamond J from the auction. If declarer had it, he would have opened 1NT. And so on. Most bad results come from mistakes, not form inadequate system agreements. Maybe at the highest level it is different.

 

If you prefer "failure of analysis" to "bad judgment" I can go with that.

[GrahamJson]

I think using 2D as a waiting bid can be overdone. Here you have a perfectly good 2S response. Even more so holding xxx in hearts as you can raise a 3H rebid to four. With a singleton heart bidding 2D makes more sense as yo can rebid 2S over the likely 2H rebid by opener. The point is whether to make a waiting bid of 2D when you hold values depends a lot on your distribution. Holding five hearts you can make a positive response quite freely, whereas holding diamonds you are much more likely to bid 2D as a 3D response can cramp the bidding too much.

[Phil]

Control responses make this a crap shoot.

 

2C 2H (I guess)

3D 3S

 

Seems like a logical start but the auction runs out of gas. I suppose you could continue with 4N and ID the sKQ but that seems how novices bid Gerber and then RKC to double check.

 

Old fashioned standard players would bid

 

2C 2S

7S......well opener might take it a little slower and confirm responder doesn't have diamond support or KTxxxx of spades.

 

 

If the big hand doesn't open 2C I hope Gazilli gets played. That would avoid the need to make a phony jump shift.

 

In my Meckwell partnership we would bid

 

1C 1H

2D 2S

3S 3N

4C 4S

4N 5C

5D 6C

7S

 

1H is 8-11, 3N is NS, etc.

 

In my new partnership we'd bid

 

1D 1H

1N 2C

3D 3S

4S 4N

5D 5N

7S

 

1H is spades, 1N is Gazzilli like, 2C is positive, 3D shows about a strong 2 in diamonds.

[neilkaz]

I would hope that the bidding in my old fashioned 2/1 partnerships would go as follows.

 

2♣(WTP) 2♠(A rare positive response strictly adhering to have a 5+ card suit with 2 of the top 3 honors and 8+HCP). Now opener could practically gamble 7♠ but asking cannot hurt. So 4NT 1430.

5C (1 key but I knew that from the strict positive response) and now I can ask about the Queen of trumps I know PD holds with 5♦ and he will show me that Queen + the K♣ with 6♣ bid. Or I can just ask specific kings with 5NT and again he bids 6♣. All roads to to the confident grand.

[masse24]

I would hope that the bidding in my old fashioned 2/1 partnerships would go as follows.

 

2♣(WTP) 2♠(A rare positive response strictly adhering to have a 5+ card suit with 2 of the top 3 honors and 8+HCP). Now opener could practically gamble 7♠ but asking cannot hurt. So 4NT 1430.

5C (1 key but I knew that from the strict positive response) and now I can ask about the Queen of trumps I know PD holds with 5♦ and he will show me that Queen + the K♣ with 6♣ bid. Or I can just ask specific kings with 5NT and again he bids 6♣. All roads to to the confident grand.

 

If I went this route (via 2♣) I would want partner to know that my 4NT "asking" is for ♠s. So, after 2♠ . . . let partner in on it with 3♠. An immediate 4NT could be construed as vanilla Blackwood sans suit agreement.

[neilkaz]

If I went this route (via 2♣) I would want partner to know that my 4NT "asking" is for ♠s. So, after 2♠ . . . let partner in on it with 3♠. An immediate 4NT could be construed as vanilla Blackwood sans suit agreement.

This is OK also, but we'd the agreement that 4NT is for ♠ after a 2♠ positive response. Your method seems to make more sense since as long as PD adheres to the strict requirements for a positive response, the 2♣ opener knows about his trump honors anyhow.

[kenberg]

If I went this route (via 2♣) I would want partner to know that my 4NT "asking" is for ♠s. So, after 2♠ . . . let partner in on it with 3♠. An immediate 4NT could be construed as vanilla Blackwood sans suit agreement.

 

Right. I was speaking of this with a f2f partner the other day. For simplicity, we would just assume that 4NT over 2S is rkc, but I mentioned that when there is an opportunity to set trumps. such as by bidding 3S here, then 4NT can be played as 4 ace blackwood. For now, we are leaving well enough alone. But I think what you are saying is the right way.

[miamijd]

The trouble with a 2C opener is that it's going to be difficult to know what the right spot is after 2C 2D/2H 3D 3H/3S.

 

You now have no idea either where the hand belongs (NT, D, or if partner bids 3S, spades) or how high (game or slam). And unfortunately, you have pretty much run out of room to explore.

 

I would open 1D on this hand (but I think I would be in the minority). I'm not too worried about playing there; if partner is bust, someone is going to bid hearts or clubs.

 

After 1S, 5D is a silly bid. All partner needs is Kxxxx of spades to make 6S odds-on, and KQxxx to make a grand a good bet. Alternatively, 6 or 7D could be cold.

 

Instead, you have an easy reverse to 2H. It is actually common enough to reverse into a phony suit. There are a lot of 6331 hands with a 6 card minor where you have to do that. This is an extension of that.

 

The reason 2H is safe as can be here is that you have 3 spades. So if partner raises hearts, you know he has 4 hearts, and thus at least 5 spades (because with 44, he'd bid 1H, not 1S). With your hand, a heart raise would be great news.

 

So now you have 1D 1S 2H 2S (showing 5) 4NT 5D(one) 5H(Qask) 6S (Q no Kings) 7S. Easy peasy lemon squeezy :)

 

Cheers,

Mike

[miamijd]

These thoughts about a reverse interest me. If an auction begins 1C-1M-2D I think of the 2D as a bit suspect. People get dealt strong hands with strong clubs, hands where they are comfortable bidding to 4C, and maybe not much in diamonds. What else can they do but fake a reverse into diamonds.

 

I have always avoided faking a reverse into the majors. With enough caution, I suppose it could work: 1D-1S-2H-3H. Opener trusts responder to have four hearts and therefore five spades. If a 3S call now tells responder to forget about that heart call, what opener really has is three spades and long diamonds, this could work.

 

Of course responder will not always have four hearts, and didn't on this hand. People have varied ideas about what happens after a reverse. In my view, responder with five spades but no diamond support rebids 2S (not to be passed). With four spades and diamond support, responder bids 3D (gf) or 2NT->3C, intending to bid a passable 3D. With both diamond support and five spades and non-minimal values I think the gf 3D is better, after which opener bids 3S with three card support just in case responder has five. With a minimal hand, five spades and diamond support then responder still seeks a fit with 2S, he can always get out later in 3D if needed.

 

So maybe this can work with 1D-1S-2H also, but I have a reluctance to fool around in the majors. With enough discussion I suppose it can work but I have not had such discussions with anyone online, and rarely if ever with f2fs.

 

Here, 2C seems right. It will work out usually, and would have worked out very well with the actual hands.

 

Faking a reverse into hearts is 100% safe if you have 3 spades. If partner raises hearts (showing 4), you know he has 5 spades (with 44 he would have bid 1H, not 1S), so you just go back to spades to show your hearts were phony.

 

This is rather common on 3361 and 3163 hands, and sometimes is useful on 3262 hands, too (if you choose not to open the hand with 2NT).

[jogs]

Years ago in the Bridge World, there was a Master Solvers hand where opener was something like 3=1=8=1? (or maybe 3=8=1=1???, sorry, don't remember the details, maybe somebody else does) with jump shift strength with 2 singleton aces. The 100% score after a start of 1♦ - 1♠ was a jump shift to 3♣. The comment that stands out after all these years was along the line of never having a bad result by jumping in the lower ranking of your singleton aces.

Can you narrow it down to which decade? Which year would be better. 'Funny' three level bids are usually in a minor.

Opponents silent.

1♦ - 1♠, 3♥

Don't most advanced pairs treat this as a splinter? It is difficult to treat a 3♥ as not natural in some sense.

[kenberg]

Let's say that having opened 1D I might well have made up a reverse into 2H over 1S. I still fault myself for not planning it out. That is, my reasoning could have been: If I am not prepared to reverse into 2H over 1S then I had better not open this 1D.

But then I had also better think about what I am going to do after 1D-1H.

 

Basic bridge instruction is to think about a rebid when choosing a first bid. I didn't, or rather I thought about some issues after 2C, didn't like it, so I opened 1D w/o much thought at all. But then, over 1D-1H, I suppose I could go with the 1D-1H-3C plan.

 

I think there are two sorts of discussions possible.

 

1. What to do online with a partner with whom you have played some but with whom you have no detailed experience or agreements

and

2. What to wok thorough in a partnership

 

I really think 2C was the best choice in situation 1. In situation 2 I am up for various other options. Certainly 2C could go wrong.

 

Oh. I did not understand Phil's reference to Gazilli. I have never played it but I thought that was after 1M-1NT or some such.

[Lovera]

I have read discussion but i think that one can be considered a false problem. Infact partner response is positive in an hand able to open with a 2♣ (semiforcing until 3rd level or 2NT) because you have four losers (4 l.x5=20) vs 23 points counting longness only in diamond. The positive answeres (on accordling in Stayman system pag. 283) are : 1) 1A+1K or 3K or KQ in a suit and 1K in another one; 2) a suit headed with KQ or AJ (KQxxx , AJxxx).(Lovera)

[jogs]

1♦ - 1♠, 4♦

 

This bid promises 4-6 in spades/diamonds. Maybe 3-7 is only a small lie.

[kenberg]

 

 

After 1S, 5D is a silly bid. All partner needs is Kxxxx of spades to make 6S odds-on, and KQxxx to make a grand a good bet. Alternatively, 6 or 7D could be cold.

 

 

 

I agree. And I both said and meant that tact was not required in responses. :)

 

In retrospect, I believe that before opening 1D I should have, at the least, considered the likely non-jump responses of 1H, 1S, 1NT and 2C, and if I could not figure out what my next call would be over those I should have bitten the bullet and opened 2C. Opening 2C can go wrong but it can also go right. We are seldom offered perfect choices in bridge or in life.

 

jogs suggests maybe 1D-1S-4D, maybe as not too great a lie. Although I also understand this to show a strong 6-4 I would not haul it out online witha casual partner, or for that matter with a f2f partner that I have not discussed it with. And I am not 6-4. Reversing into 2H has its merits, and now if partner raises to 3H she will understand, maybe, after I bid 3S that I was just joking with the 2H. Or maybe she will take it as showing some spade values such as Ax and a try for 6H. Ok, if we get to 6H I can always correct to 6S.

 

 

All in all, I should have opened this 2C.

[jogs]

 

After 1S, 5D is a silly bid. All partner needs is Kxxxx of spades to make 6S odds-on, and KQxxx to make a grand a good bet. Alternatively, 6 or 7D could be cold.

 

 

Missing QTxxx is huge. I'm not convinced 6♠ is odds-on. I think(but not sure) it is less than 50/50.

Both spades and diamonds split 3-2 a little under 50% of the time. Assuming a heart lead 6♠ should fail with both spades and diamonds 3-2 whenever West has Qx or Qxx. You are taking the spade hook, aren't you?