Investigating slam after NMF

[smerriman]

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What is the best continuation here?

 

a) Bid 4NT, hear 5♦, and bid 6♠, simply hoping that partner isn't missing AK♥?

b) Bid 3♣ just to force another bid out of partner.. then what?

c) Something else?

d) Jump shift to 2♠ instead of bidding 1♠?

 

(Partner was GIB, but interested in answers both with/without GIB if they differ).

[Cyberyeti]

I don't know GIB's bidding, and not totally familiar with this version of NMF

 

Translating what I play to a strong NT system assuming no GIB, I can bid 4♦ (splinter, unlimited as 3♦ is nat forcing), and partner will cue a heart control if he has one.

 

If you can't do this I suspect you have to bid 3♣. I would be in a much better position in this auction as I would know a lot more about partner's shape than you do (3253, 3244, 3343, 3352 are the only possibilities)

 

7 can still be on here for you although not for me as partner can't have 4 hearts for me (KQx, AKxx, xxxx, xx is sufficient)

[masse24]

What are you using 3♠ (after 2♠) for?

 

Why not use it to set trumps in search of slam?

[steve2005]

Your off AK♥so keycard won't tell you if your off 2 cashing ♥.

With a human I would bid 3♣ and start cuebidding.

This is a waste of time with GIB as they won't cuebid K♥ only A♥. If your lucky they will take over and keycard. Good luck trying a scientific auction with GIB.

[smerriman]

With a human I would bid 3♣ and start cuebidding.

By this do you mean 3♣ would guarantee 5 spades and agree spades a trumps? My main concern was that it wouldn't due to the range of hands I could have for NMF. (Gib in particular describes it as simply 4+♠, 4+♣).

[The_Badger]

hi Stephen, (smerriman)

 

With GIB's propensity to turn up with the hand that you don't desire opposite you - I'm joking when I say this as it is a wonderful bridge program and bids and plays better than many partners, I would just bid 4♠. (Cowardly, yes.) But knowing my luck, on this occasion, it will turn up with the hand cold for 7♠( :( ) and I would consider stamp collecting as a less stressful hobby :)

 

But with a human partner I would bid 3♣ and take it from there. No point in splintering with 4♦: it just wastes space, and splintering with an singleton x is preferable to splintering with a singleton ace when you already know that ♠ will be the suit contract.

 

As for you suggestion d) 1♦ - pass - 2♠ - GIB takes this as the Soloway jump shift, 17+ and rebiddable ♠. Does this help? Probably not if GIB has trouble cuebidding.

 

Ok, I am blasting to 6♠ directly with GIB. (Unscientific, yes, but would it understand a 5♠ bid? Doubtful.) I've had my morning coffee. If it goes down I will mutter C'est la vie... :)

[Cyberyeti]

 

No point in splintering with 4♦: it just wastes space, and splintering with an singleton x is preferable to splintering with a singleton ace when you already know that ♠ will be the suit contract.

 

 

Depends on your agreements, with mine, partner will bid 4♥ with a heart control, 4♠ without which is the only thing I want to know here before going past 4♠, asking aces can sort the rest out if partner shows the heart control.

 

If partner bids 3♥ over your 3♣ are you sure you know what it means ?

[msjennifer]

Me and my regular partner.after the given bidding,use Jump to 4C ( if p has started with 1D and 4D if he has started with 1C) as RKC for spades,and depending upon his answer ,either sign off in 4 Spades or continue further(if all key cards are confirmed) with SPIRAL and stop in six or bid the grand with ease.

[The_Badger]

Depends on your agreements, with mine, partner will bid 4♥ with a heart control, 4♠ without which is the only thing I want to know here before going past 4♠, asking aces can sort the rest out if partner shows the heart control.

 

If partner bids 3♥ over your 3♣ are you sure you know what it means ?

 

I tend to agree with you, Cyberyeti. I have tried running through the sequence of bids in my head to reach a small slam or a grand slam with the right cards. Is it at all possible to reach 7♠ after 3♣ or 4♦? Cuebidding and RCKB help so far, but the key cards are the ♥AK and ♠KQ, and then you may still have a ♣ loser, if partner has ♥ AKx - surely far too much needs to be right.

 

There are plenty of hands where 6♠ does not make too, but at least by bidding 4♦ you are clarifying matters quickly instead of skirting around the edges trying to bid a perfect grand slam.

[phoenix214]

I think, the most pratical bid with your hand is 6 spades. Obviously sometimes you have 7, and sometimes you go down in 6. But on average id assume partner has 12-14 balance, while we have an 18 count, with a known 9 card fit.

The gain by blasting is that, even if we are missing HAK, opps might decide to lead a club, and we could pitch our H losers on diamonds.

Obviously there are more scientific ways to bid the hand, but currently I would not worry about them too much.

[MrAce]

By this do you mean 3♣ would guarantee 5 spades and agree spades a trumps? My main concern was that it wouldn't due to the range of hands I could have for NMF. (Gib in particular describes it as simply 4+♠, 4+♣).

• Yes that would pretty much guarantee 5♠.
• With 5♣+4♠ and a hand that will make a NMF, you would have started 2♣
• With 4♣+4♠ you would have bid 2 NT (that is forcing because your NMF alert says 12+) or you would bid 3 NT or 4 NT.
• If 2 NT after NMF is non forcing, then with 4♣+4♠ you should have started 2 NT invitation instead of NMF.

[Caitlynne]

Playing with GIB, I would just bid 6S. The robots are poor bidders, generally, and most importantly they don't understand manufactured bids so, if you use one, you can be punished by an out of control robot.

 

With an intelligent partner, I would just bid 3C. This bid is ostensibly natural and establishes a game force. Another benefit of this bid is that partner will value the Queen of clubs if he/she has it and that is hardly a bad card.

 

If partner rebids 3D or 3H over my 3C, I continue with 3S. Now a cue bid is obligatory from partner.

 

Over 3D followed by my 3S, partner now might bid 4S without a convenient cue bid. This would deny the Ace of hearts, of course, but it pretty much establishes that partner must have a top spade honor, so I have enough to make one more try with 5D. That will induce partner to bid 5H to show the King of hearts if he/she has it.

 

Over 3H followed by my 3S, I am very optimistic. Partner now is known to have a heart control card (Ace of King) and very likely a top spade honor as well (unless he/she has both the Ace and King of hearts). If partner now bids 4D, I can use RKCB now to figure it all out.

 

If partner instead bids 3S in response to my 3C, I will continue with 4D. This clearly is a cue bid and shows strong slam interest.

[Stephen Tu]

I agree with masse24, just bid 3s and set trumps. With plain NMF, I think 2s should show fit but decline invitation, so that there is no need 3s NF. Opener with non-min and 3s can bid 3s over 2c instead of just 2s. If you dislike this jumping around by opener, then play some sort of 2-way checkback/XY-type scheme instead.

 

With robots, who knows which bids are forcing, and it's kind of pointless since it won't cue bid the KH. Might as well RKC and blast.

[jogs]

What are you using 3♠ (after 2♠) for?

 

Why not use it to set trumps in search of slam?

3♠ verifies that there is at least 5-3 in spades. Nothing is set in stone.

Partner held

♠ Txx ♥ KJx ♦ Kx ♣ KQJxx

 

1♣ - 1♠, 1NT- 2♦, 2♠ - 3♠, ?

Partner rebid 3NT.

 

I held

♠ Jxxxx ♥ Qx ♦ Axx ♣ Axx

9 tricks in NT and 9 tricks in spades.

[MrAce]

3♠ verifies that there is at least 5-3 in spades. Nothing is set in stone.

Partner held

♠ Txx ♥ KJx ♦ Kx ♣ KQJxx

 

1♣ - 1♠, 1NT- 2♦, 2♠ - 3♠, ?

Partner rebid 3NT.

 

I held

♠ Jxxxx ♥ Qx ♦ Axx ♣ Axx

9 tricks in NT and 9 tricks in spades.

 

You are so wrong.

 

With the hand you had, you shd have bid 2 NT over 2♠. (without 5 card ♠ you would bid 2 NT previous round)

Bidding 3 ♠, sets the trumps. If pd, after 3♠, is still looking for which game is better, instead of giving you valuable information for slam, just throw that system ASAP.

 

To be honest, I would have bid 2 NT with your hand, the previous round, without the NMF. You have 11 count. You do not have a GF hand, You have a perfect invitation hand. But you could also do that by 2 NT over 2♠

 

Your auction shows you have MUCH more than what you actually had. Over your 3♠ pd, who is already limited his hand by 1 NT, will

 

a-Bid 4♠ with less than 2 keycards

b-Will cue and say he has 2 or more keycards and he does not like his hand

c-Will cue in another way, telling he has 2 or more keycards and he likes his hand

 

He will not waste his time for whether 3 NT or 4♠ is better. Because if that was the case, his pd (you) would not have bid like this.

[iandayre]

Playing with GIB I like a SJS. GIB tends to be aggressive in the slam zone. If you next rebid 3NT you are not too likely to miss slam if GIB passes.

[miamijd]

Hopefully my response will clear up a few misconceptions that seem to be around:

 

1. If you play "standard" NMF, then 2S does NOT establish a game force. It shows 12-13 and 3 spades. With 14 and 3 spades, partner skips to 3S (forcing).

 

2. That means that unless you have agreed otherwise, 3s is NOT FORCING. It is an invite. I don't think that's what you want to do with this hand. If you don't believe me, perhaps you will believe Larry Cohen:

 

https://www.larryco.com/bridge-learning-center/detail/108

 

3. 3C isn't typically played as forcing, either. The meaning of 3C depends on how you play 3C directly over 1NT. If you play that as a weak 46 (4 spades 6 clubs), then 3C now is a 45 or 46 invitational hand. If you play 3C over 1NT as invitational, then 3C now is a weak 46 and is to play.

 

Otherwise, you have no way to show the weak 46 hand and the invitational 45 and 46 hands.

 

4. I probably would bid 6S at this point, especially if this is MPs. Partner didn't bid 3S, so you are highly unlikely to have 7S. But you have a 5-loser hand with a 9-fit opposite an opening bid; that ought to make slam. The advantage of just "blasting" is that the opponents have less information regarding what to lead. They might have the AKh between them and fail to lead H.

 

In addition, if you play standard expert cue-bidding, it's hard to find a control in the suit below the trump suit, as in a cue-bidding sequence, a 4H bid is not a H control, but instead is "Last Train."

 

Finally, the reason why I say "especially in MPs," is that in MPs, there is an additional reason to blast. If you cue-bid or use key-card and end up in 6S with partner having the Kh, I guarantee you that LHO will lead H even if he doesn't have the Ace. This could cost you a valuable overtrick.

 

5. This sort of hand is the reason why NMF is not a great treatment. Two-way NMF or xyz is a lot better. With two-way, you would bid 2D, not 2C, to show a game forcing hand (2C would show game invitational strength). Partner would bid 2S with a minimum and 3 spades, and now that you are in a GF auction, 3C would indeed start a cue-bidding sequence. Much easier.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[johnu]

Playing with GIB, I would just bid 6S. The robots are poor bidders, generally, and most importantly they don't understand manufactured bids so, if you use one, you can be punished by an out of control robot.

 

I would be afraid jump to 6♠ with GIB who may interpret your bid as showing 25-30 HCP, and/or solid spades, and raise you to a no play 7♠.

[smerriman]

2. That means that unless you have agreed otherwise, 3s is NOT FORCING. It is an invite. I don't think that's what you want to do with this hand. If you don't believe me, perhaps you will believe Larry Cohen:

 

https://www.larryco.com/bridge-learning-center/detail/108

 

This was my understanding too. Having considered the responses in this thread, it seems like a bit of a waste of a bid though, putting so much importance of a single point (given opener has already denied a maximum). A game force seems more useful.

 

3. 3C isn't typically played as forcing, either. The meaning of 3C depends on how you play 3C directly over 1NT. If you play that as a weak 46 (4 spades 6 clubs), then 3C now is a 45 or 46 invitational hand. If you play 3C over 1NT as invitational, then 3C now is a weak 46 and is to play.

 

Otherwise, you have no way to show the weak 46 hand and the invitational 45 and 46 hands.

 

Do you have a reference for this one? I see several discussions saying that if a direct 3♣ is forcing, then a later 3♣ is invitational, and vice versa - but nobody suggesting an approach with *neither* forcing as you suggest. Not being able to show a weak 46 was simply what you lose by an artificial 2♣.

[1eyedjack]

Hopefully my response will clear up a few misconceptions that seem to be around:

 

1. If you play "standard" NMF, then 2S does NOT establish a game force. It shows 12-13 and 3 spades. With 14 and 3 spades, partner skips to 3S (forcing).

 

2. That means that unless you have agreed otherwise, 3s is NOT FORCING. It is an invite. I don't think that's what you want to do with this hand. If you don't believe me, perhaps you will believe Larry Cohen:

 

https://www.larryco....nter/detail/108

 

If, as you seem to agree, 2S by opener limits his hand to a minimum opener, there seems little point in having any further continuations as invitational. It means you play in 3S rather than 2S when as predicted partner passes 3S, and it gives up on a very useful GF 3S raise.

 

In Cohen's article to which you link, he appears to use 2S as unlimited (beyond the original 1N rebid) and in that context it makes sense for 3S to be invitational. That is a playable method. Not saying whether it is better or not, but let's not mix apples and oranges.

[Zelandakh]

But on average id assume partner has 12-14 balance,

There is no need to assume. The description tells us that Opener has 12-13. In this version of NMF, where Opener shows min/max directly on their rebid, invites are typically off so I would expect 3♠ to be slam interest. That makes it the obvious choice on this hand. It would be good if someone with access to GIB could check the meaning and report back.

[masse24]

 

1. If you play "standard" NMF, then 2S does NOT establish a game force. It shows 12-13 and 3 spades. With 14 and 3 spades, partner skips to 3S (forcing).

 

2. That means that unless you have agreed otherwise, 3s is NOT FORCING. It is an invite. I don't think that's what you want to do with this hand. If you don't believe me, perhaps you will believe Larry Cohen:

 

https://www.larryco.com/bridge-learning-center/detail/108

 

With all due respect to Mr. Cohen (and your detailed analysis) we'll have to agree to disagree. Cohen's version does not make the distinction between a "minimum" (12-13 and 3 ♠) and a "maximum" (14 and 3 ♠) hand. Both ranges are bundled into the 2 ♠ response to NMF. Therefore, it logically follows that an invite to ask opener "which do you have?" is required.

 

However, your description (and that in the OP) made the distinction between a "minimum" 12-13 and a "maximum" 14 opening hand. You even stated it was "standard." I agree. So, if opener, in response to NMF, shows the lower range of 12-13 with 2♠, there is no need for an invite. Again, it logically follows that a subsequent 3♠ call by responder is a GF. If opener's third bid in response to NMF is at the two-level or three-level based on strength then I am sure that Mr. Cohen would agree with this logic.

 

I see others have made the same observation.

 

My earlier suggestion (upthread) to play 3♠ as suit agreement and slam-seeking was based on this logic, that 3 ♠ as an invite when 2♠ shows 12-13 is superfluous.

 

Is NMF best? Heck no! We're in complete agreement there.