ATB

[manudude03]

[hv=pc=n&e=s63haj85d853ckt75&w=sakq82hkt4dcaq842&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=ppp1sp1np3cp3nppp]266|200[/hv]

 

MPs scoring. Who is to blame for ending in 3NT off the diamond suit?

[kuhchung]

EAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

[kuhchung]

3N shows a hand like x KJxxx QJxx xxx or something like that, not a doubleton in partner's primary suit, 4 card support in his secondary, and aces and nothing in the red suits

 

yes you might fabricate a 3C jump shift but if you are that worried about it you can preference to 3S

[neilkaz]

East's 3NT bid is the type of bid you make on this auction when looking for a new partner.

[Cyberyeti]

What do you want E to bid ?

 

Partner has shown 5♠/4♣ and too much to make a NF bid. 3N is a punt, but could be right, going past 3N could be totally wrong.

 

You could easily have a situation where 3N is cold but 5♣ founders on a 4-1 club break or you're 630/660 against 600/non laydown 620.

 

Give partner ♦QJx instead of ♥K10x for example and maybe add J♠.

 

I don't think it's easy, but oddly what I play works really well here:

 

We have exactly 2 hands where we open 1♣ 5-5 in the blacks, 1♣-1♥-2♠ is this hand minus K♥ and 1♣-1red-1♠-any-2♠ is this hand, in fact it may well go 1♣-1♥-1♠-3♣-3♥-4♣-4N(voidwood ♦ void, 4♦ would be KC)-5♥- and partner is known to be 2434 or similar with A♥/K♣ and 1-2 other points as we play that a 2434 10 count would start with an inverted raise and we have other bids for the other hands, so we're bidding 6 or 7 clubs, probably 7.

[wank]

What do you want E to bid ?

 

 

 

3S. 3NT is absurd

[MrAce]

What do you want E to bid ?

 

Partner has shown 5♠/4♣ and too much to make a NF bid. 3N is a punt, but could be right, going past 3N could be totally wrong.

 

You could easily have a situation where 3N is cold but 5♣ founders on a 4-1 club break or you're 630/660 against 600/non laydown 620.

 

Give partner ♦QJx instead of ♥K10x for example and maybe add J♠.

 

I think we can play 3♥ as...

 

a-6+ ♥

b- Fear to bid 3 NT.

 

Opener can bid 3 NT with the QJx ♦ and void ♥ or stiff ♥. If he raises ♥ suit and you hold the East hand in OP, you should be happy that you did not play 3 NT and can correct to 5♣ or 4♠

 

If we bid 3♠ as Wank suggests, opener will never know when 3 NT is right. After all responder could have KJTx ♦ and xxxx ♥

 

Another solution can be to use 3♦ over 3♣ as a relay bid.

[Phil]

Well, I'd never bid 3N. At MPS I don't want to give up on 3N...yet. 3D works well here.

 

Let's agree standard sucks. Knowing partner has 5 clubs is pretty huge.

[Cyberyeti]

I think we can play 3♥ as...

 

a-6+ ♥

b- Fear to bid 3 NT.

 

Opener can bid 3 NT with the QJx ♦ and void ♥ or stiff ♥. If he raises ♥ suit and you hold the East hand in OP, you should be happy that you did not play 3 NT and can correct to 5♣ or 4♠

 

If we bid 3♠ as Wank suggests, opener will never know when 3 NT is right. After all responder could have KJTx ♦ and xxxx ♥

 

Another solution can be to use 3♦ over 3♣ as a relay bid.

 

This is fair comment, but if you don't have these agreements, you have to find a bid. I'm not saying 3N is a good bid, just that it's not totally absurd.

[Tramticket]

We are in a game forcing auction after 3♣. A 3♥ bid shows values in hearts and leaves open 3NT, 4♠ or 5/6♣ as possible contracts.

 

3NT or 3♠ are too unilateral.

 

I agree with MrAce - 3♥ can be just showing heart values - it doesn't guarantee the weak hand with long hearts once a game forcing auction is established.

[ggwhiz]

East's 3NT bid is the type of bid you make on this auction when looking for a new partner.

 

..... and before the next hand when your partner becomes violently ill.

 

3♥ still keeps 3nt in the picture if that's what partner bids and when they raise here, I can't go wrong even if I pass in 4♥ but that bid would show diamond shortness so when I remove it to clubs we may well get to the (small) slam.

[Winstonm]

This is fair comment, but if you don't have these agreements, you have to find a bid. I'm not saying 3N is a good bid, just that it's not totally absurd.

 

You are right. It is completely absurd.

[Cyberyeti]

You are right. It is completely absurd.

 

Well if I think my choices are:

 

3red - shows long suit and a heap (we don't play WJS)

3♠ gives partner no clue where my red suit values are and may encourage partner to bid a terrible 4♠ when 3N or 5/6♣ is the spot, I have no clue whether to remove

3N yuk

4/5♣ may already be past the top spot

 

because I don't have more sophisticated agreements about 3 red, I might punt 3N occasionally thinking there is no good bid so I'll just guess

[helene_t]

I would bid 3♥ but I am a bit worried about it. If partner raises it, I could go back to 4♠ but does that really show this kind of hand? Next time I have A-KQJxxx-xxx-Jxx and I am looking for a diamond control for a heart slam.

[MrAce]

I would bid 3♥ but I am a bit worried about it. If partner raises it, I could go back to 4♠ but does that really show this kind of hand? Next time I have A-KQJxxx-xxx-Jxx and I am looking for a diamond control for a heart slam.

 

You could have started 2 or 3 ♥ with those depending on system agreements, but if that was unavaliable, I do not think you should worry about it. You should pass 4 ♥ with the hand you gave as example.

 

KQJxx

Ax

xx

AKQx

 

KQJxx

Ax

Qx

AKxx

 

Are the type of hands pd will bid 4♥

 

KQJxx(x)

Ax(x)

x

AKQx

 

 

KQJxx

Ax

Ax

KQxx

Are the type of hands pd would bid 4♦ with, instead of simple raise of hearts. Pd's 4♦ should never be 5044 or 5035 6034 in this auction.

[ggwhiz]

I would bid 3♥ but I am a bit worried about it. If partner raises it, I could go back to 4♠ but does that really show this kind of hand? Next time I have A-KQJxxx-xxx-Jxx and I am looking for a diamond control for a heart slam.

 

Some awkwardness is the cost of keeping 3nt alive if partner bids it but I suspect it will be very rare for me not to be relatively comfortable with my follow ups including if partner drove to a 6 or even 7♥ contract on the moyse by trotting out big black next.

 

As for going back to 4♠, suppressing that club support has happened in my partnership and is now defined as a crime, excusable only by angling for 3nt as here. Not to mention the diamond pump on partners 5-card suit.

 

The next time hand looks like a 5♥ bid to me should partner raise.

[SteveMoe]

3N is atrocious. Much prefer 3♦ punt so West can continue. Even 3♥ is better than 3N.

West should not sit 3N with 5=0=3=5 3-loser. Both.

[rmnka447]

3 NT is egregious without a ♦ stop when West has shown 9+ black cards. It is putting cards (a ♦ stopper) in West's hand -- a bidding no-no if you can't infer they are there by bridge logic,

 

East's bid should be 3 ♥ which shows something in ♥. If West raises to 4 ♥, then East should carry on to 5 ♣.

[gszes]

100% east 3n is horribly grotesque. P chose 3c for a reason (vs say 2n/3n) so there is some sort of problem with one (or both) of the red sujits. That means 3n appears to be a horrible choice since it is guesswork at best but what other choices are there that better reflect this balanced 9 hcp hand (sort of what 3n sounds like).

 

3d unless this is artificial (no reason to suspect that here) it should at worst be "stuff" in diamonds and nothing much in hearts fro 3n purposes but could also be natural in the sense of length. No matter how you look at it this is diametrically opposed to what you want to portray with this hand. In fact this bid is actually worse than 3n since it sends the partnership on the road to destruction for no good reason.

 

3s downside is 3 fold 1. insufficient spade support 2. Does nothing to address potential problems for possible NT contract. 3. Hides your sides best asset (4 card club support) still this bid is better than 3d or 3n

 

4c vastly superior to the above since it reveals your sides best asset and leaves all sorts of room available for whatever opener wishes to do

 

5c being at max this seems like a shame but still hardly horrific rates better than 3d 3s or 3n

 

whats left???? is there ANY good bid available here.

 

If we swap around the heart and dia suit not a soul on the planet would have a problem with 3d so why is it so hard to imagine

3h

is the right thing to do here? Even if opener supports hearts we can convert to clubs and opener will realize our 3h bid conveyed a dia weakeness that might be useful.

 

3h 10

4c 7

5c 5

3s 4

3n 3

4s 2

3d 0

 

don't ask for any credit for 6c or 7c since I don't readily give any credit for las vegas bids that happen to work.

[Fluffy]

East knows partner has short in a red suit, whatever the suit he rather plays a suit contract.

[Trinidad]

I blame "MPs". I bet that many more ended in 3NT. So, I will take my 30% score. Next board.

 

Rik

[Zelandakh]

Some interesting things being said in this thread. First of all, I do not think 3♣ promises 5♠4♣ but rather either 5+♠, 4+♣ or 6+♠, 2+♣. Secondly, surely everyone above club level plays 3♦ in this auction as some sort of grope? Exactly which hands go through that will vary from pair to pair but for it to be completely natural in combination with standard's jump shift style strikes me as a really bad idea.

 

On East's rebid options, 3NT strikes me as a really bad idea with so little idea of what partner's hand looks like. 3♠ on the surface is better but also not without issues. Change ♣2 to ♦2 and I suspect most would continue 3NT, which East will pass, once more reaching the terrible 3NT. Sure we are doing slightly better than after 3NT but it is still not ideal. 3♥ is another good option and possibly the best option for pairs that do not understand gropes. The actual hand illustrates the downside of this nicely though, Opener might well believe partner has a real suit and insist on the Moysian in hearts. Of course 3♥ without a grope, indeed perhaps even with, should be an either/or bid with Opener being more circumspect. That might work quite well here. Finally, when partner makes a jump shift and we are unsure of the best place to be, the best solution is often to made the next call, a grope. 3♦ gives Opener the chance to clarify their hand type, hopefully leaving us better placed the next time around. At the very least the lack of a 3♠ continuation would let us know that the clubs are real, although there is not enough space to identify the red suit position so this is also not exactly a perfect solution.

 

The truth is that this is a weak area of standard bidding and none of the available solutions can win every case. If you have the agreement that 3♥ is not necessarily a full (5+) suit then that seems to be the right option here. Lacking that, the ubiquitous 3♦ grope strikes me as giving us the best chance of getting it right, although I would like this a lot more at IMPs than MPs. 3♠ is the basic option opposite an unimaginative club level partner but probably ends up giving neither of us enough information to avoid guessing. 3NT is for me the worst of the three level options, forcing us to guess with minimal information. Indeed, I prefer 4♣ to 3NT even knowing that there are many hands where this would be a disaster.

[dboxley]

East 100%. If I could give East more blame, I would. This doesn't even require an explanation.

[dboxley]

I would bid 3♥ but I am a bit worried about it. If partner raises it, I could go back to 4♠ but does that really show this kind of hand? Next time I have A-KQJxxx-xxx-Jxx and I am looking for a diamond control for a heart slam.

 

Did you forget to bid 2♥?

[PhantomSac]

People are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. Over 3C east can just raise to 4C. We are never playing 3N, even if I bid 3S and partner bid 3N I would not sit with xxx diamonds that is nuts, I would bid 4C. 3S will be better when the 5-2 spade fit is better than playing in clubs so that is certainly a reasonable bid, but we have a great hand for a club slam and 4C will be the easiest way to get there. Our honor disparity in spades and clubs makes me think that spades will not be better that much more often to get me to bid 3S.