A Bidding Question

[Adam1105]

I'd like to ask other bridge players what they think North's next bid should be. (Yes, it's a weak open but it's not relevant to the question, ty.)

 

[hv=pc=n&n=skjha72dt942ca654&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=p1dp1h1sp2s3cp]133|200[/hv]

 

onean-k

[helene_t]

It depends how strong the 3♣ bid is and whether it shows five hearts or not. Without having discussed this sequence I would bid 3♥ which is wrong only if partner has a weak hand with four hearts and longer clubs.

[wanoff]

4♥ to show primary support and a presumably club fit.

[Tramticket]

What is the forms of scoring? IMPs or MPs?

 

This is not my system (I play a weak NT), but it feels to me that 3C should be forcing to game - in which case I can bid 3H and find out more about partner's hand. If 3H is only a one-round force I think 3H is still right - I am very minimum. (partner can then bid 3S with extras, if looking for a spade stop).

[Cyberyeti]

What would X from both N and S have been at their last opportunies to bid ? did the P over 1♠ just show any weak NT ?

 

Would 2N by S have been natural ?

[wank]

4C. as far as i'm concerned, partner can have a weak hand with 4 hearts and 6 clubs. but this can easily make game and when it doesn't the opps will normally be making something.

 

xx KQxx x Kxxxxx

[Zelandakh]

Which system are we playing? I think most American players would have doubled at their previous opportunity. If we are playing French style, where a double would have shown extras, then 3♥ now shows precisely this hand type. Other relevant information is what RR of 2NT would have been - playing that as artificial has some knock-on effects that make hands like this simpler.

[kenberg]

I also open this. No complaint there.

 

If playing support doubles, I would have made one over (1S). I assume that a support double is unavailable.

 

So now what, over 3C? It's not easy, which is, I suppose, an advertisement for support doubles.

 

I am bidding 3H. Surely this shows three hearts. With four I would have raised immediately, with two I would find another bid now.

 

Partner should expect me to have three hearts (for my 3H), opening values (I opened), and nothing extra (I passed on the second round). That's what I have.

 

If partner now bids 3S I will have to decide whether I want to take the plunge with 3NT or move on to a (passable I think) 4C. That, I think, is a tough call. Hopefully pard has five hearts and raises to 4, and I don't have to deal with what to do over 3S. For the moment, 3H seems fine.

 

If he does bid 3S instead of 4H, I suppose I go for it with 3NT. He knows I don't have much, I hope his (and my) optimism works out.

[Cyberyeti]

I also open this. No complaint there.

 

If playing support doubles, I would have made one over (1S). I assume that a support double is unavailable.

 

So now what, over 3C? It's not easy, which is, I suppose, an advertisement for support doubles.

 

 

There are several ways round this, we would play (admittedly in a weak NT context) a simple negative double over 1♠ showing 4 clubs (and not bereft in hearts unless extras), and a negative double over 2♠ showing 4♣ so 3♣ shows 5+. Also I don't think 2N would be natural for us, but this auction is different to the OPs as opener can't have a weak NT for us.

[ggwhiz]

This one really smells. It's a clear cut opener that just keeps getting worse.

 

1. We are getting a spade lead through our KJ. The 1♠ bidder is a passed hand but still.....

2. IF the opponents have their share of values rho's silence on the first round may well be because of diamond values that they think are poorly placed... NOT!

 

Meanwhile, give partner the spade Queen to a few means a stiff diamond.... I have to bid, 3♥ for now.

 

I have some sympathy for a pass but the 3♣ bid was forcing on my card and partner won't.

[The_Badger]

Actually, it's quite a decent opener with 2.5 quick tricks and a 12.25 count in Kaplan and Rubens, but without using a Support Double on the second round ( X after 1♠ to show 3 card ♥ support ) becomes problematic later on.

 

Agree with wank that partner could have a 2-4-1-6 hand ♠xx ♥KQxx ♦x ♣Kxxxxx hand, and may be a 'finesseguess' away from a 5♣ game.

 

However, given the actual bidding, and the opponents both passing on the first round of bidding, and dying quickly in 2♠, I would personally opt for 3♥ now. (If the opponents have 9 ♠s between them and shape I would have expected them to barrage to 3♠ so I believe partner is more likely to have a slightly stronger 3-5-1-4 shaped hand.)

 

In my opinion, 3♥ just seems right now, and wait and see where we go next.

 

[ btw 'Finesseguess' is now a patented Badger word when KJ is involved :) ]

[Caitlynne]

The question implies that opener's Pass over 1S was non-informative other than denying 4 card heart support. Therefore, opener's bid in response to responder's 3C is obvious; 3H to show the 3 card heart support.

 

Why this could be a problem is beyond me ... unless, of course, the partnership is playing support doubles (where opener's Double of 1S would show 3 card heart support) and opener missed his/her bid. That is a general problem in partnership bidding that often is exacerbated by adopted conventional agreements: miss a bid and you often cannot recover.

[Caitlynne]

The question implies that opener's Pass over 1S was non-informative other than denying 4 card heart support. Therefore, opener's bid in response to responder's 3C is obvious; 3H to show the 3 card heart support.

 

Why this could be a problem is beyond me ... unless, of course, the partnership is playing support doubles (where opener's Double of 1S would show 3 card heart support) and opener missed his/her bid. That is a general problem in partnership bidding that often is exacerbated by adopted conventional agreements: miss a bid and you often cannot recover.

[msjennifer]

I fully agree with Kenberg.The negative double by opener is ,with full respect to Cyberyeti,rather old fashioned today and for those,who sadly do not play support double,a pass is natural.Therefore, the problem has now occurred .3H bid will exactly show a three card heart support.How the further bidding goes will decide the next bids. The double fit being there I shall certainly accept any invitation from partner and bid the appropriate game.

[Cyberyeti]

I fully agree with Kenberg.The negative double by opener is ,with full respect to Cyberyeti,rather old fashioned today and for those,who sadly do not play support double,a pass is natural.Therefore, the problem has now occurred .3H bid will exactly show a three card heart support.How the further bidding goes will decide the next bids. The double fit being there I shall certainly accept any invitation from partner and bid the appropriate game.

 

Bear in mind the utility is system dependent, when the weak NT has been ruled out by the fact 1N would have been opened, the double guarantees either extra strength or extra shape, not sure I'd actually play it when playing a strong NT.

[lig1]

The hand demonstrates the importance of playing support doubles. Not a perfect convention, but getting the three card support off you chest before the bidding gets to high gets partner "in the game" earlier.

[kenberg]

Bear in mind the utility is system dependent, when the weak NT has been ruled out by the fact 1N would have been opened, the double guarantees either extra strength or extra shape, not sure I'd actually play it when playing a strong NT.

 

Except for occasional forays into the woods, I have always played strong NT and I have played support doubles for a long time.

 

As you suggest, there can be issues. Not overwhelming, but issues.

 

 

A frequent one: After the spade overcall I hold KQx of spades and xxx in hearts. Surely 1NT is more practical than a support double, or at least I think so. Exactly where the border lies is less clear to me.

 

Another one: Consider the uncontested auction 1D-1H-2H. As I play, I might have only three hearts for that raise. But if so, I have a reason. Some long ago sage, I think Edgar Kaplan, advised that you are allowed to raise on three but you should not go out of your way to do so.

When I am playing support doubles, I make a support double over (1S) on hands where it would never occur to me to do so without the overcall. This can make it tough for a responder if he is considering playing in the 4-3 heart fit. He would like to know if I hold, say, AJx or xxx. And if I have short spades.

 

But all in all, I find them worthwhile.

 

It did occur to me that perhaps the opening bidder felt his hand jut too weak to make a negative double, he wanted to first pass to show his weakness. I think this would be a mistake. For one thing, the hand is not all that bad. The spade king is a favorite to score, he can ruff a spade in dummy, where the short trumps are, he has the heart ace. This hand may not play badly at all in a 4-3 heart fit. And there could well be a 5-3 fit.

 

Anyway, playing support doubles I might chooose 1NT on some hands (not this one) instead of the support double, but I would not pass when I held my designated three card support.

 

And if the OP pair were playing negative doubles but opener passed at his second call, I would still bid 3H after 3C. I still haven't decided what I will do if partner bids 3S over my 3H. Well, I won't pass. As mentioned, I probably gamble out 3NT. Partner should understand I need help in controlling spades, or I would have bid 1NT over 1S earlier, given that, for whatever my reason, I did not double 1S.

[Finch]

The question implies that opener's Pass over 1S was non-informative other than denying 4 card heart support. Therefore, opener's bid in response to responder's 3C is obvious; 3H to show the 3 card heart support.

 

Why this could be a problem is beyond me ... unless, of course, the partnership is playing support doubles (where opener's Double of 1S would show 3 card heart support) and opener missed his/her bid. That is a general problem in partnership bidding that often is exacerbated by adopted conventional agreements: miss a bid and you often cannot recover.

 

 

Why it can be a problem? Because as far as I am concerned (and my regular partner agrees with me, it's in our systm file) 3C is not forcing and is likely to have at least as many clubs as hearts.

Wank also thinks it's non-forcing, but raises clubs anyway; at least we agree on what sort of hand partner has shown.

 

If partner wants to force he can double 2S. If he is very distributional he can bid 4C. What is he supposed to do when he simply wants to compete over 2S?

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&n=skjha72dt942ca654&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=p1dp1h1sp2s3cp]133|200|

I'd like to ask other bridge players what they think North's next bid should be. (Yes, it's a weak open but it's not relevant to the question, ty.)[/hv]

Depends on partnership agreements but I rank

4♥ = Double fit justifies this. Partner remembers that you passed over 1♠. So you are weak and cannot have 4 ♥.

3♠ = Shows ♣ bid improved your hand but suppresses ♥ fit.

4♣ = This too might lose the ♥ fit.

3♥ = Pusillanimous.

Pass = You only needed 60 for rubber :)

[The_Badger]

I agree Nigel. 4♥ looks better, even if you end up in a 4-3 Moysian fit. The only thing that concerns me is keeping control of hand as declarer if the opponents ♥s are 4-2 and they play a forcing game on defence.

 

But maybe I am burning too many brain cells on this one, and the opponents ♥s will always split 3-3 in a Moyse, or partner will definitely have a 5 card ♥ suit for his bid :)

[kenberg]

For me, passing over 1S and then bidding 4H over partner's 3C is weird. One of those things where without seeing the hands I figure that (at least) one of those calls has to be wrong. There can always be an extreme case, but I don't see this as one of them.

 

Which is not quite the same as saying that 4H won't make. Maybe it will. But after my pass, partner is not expecting me to jump to 4H and he may not welcome it. Unless it makes.

[rhm]

For me, passing over 1S and then bidding 4H over partner's 3C is weird. One of those things where without seeing the hands I figure that (at least) one of those calls has to be wrong. There can always be an extreme case, but I don't see this as one of them.

 

Which is not quite the same as saying that 4H won't make. Maybe it will. But after my pass, partner is not expecting me to jump to 4H and he may not welcome it. Unless it makes.

I agree

What is weird is getting into this position.

 

If you insist that an immediate raise to 2♥ shows 4 card support, support double are mandatory.

If you have not agreed to play support doubles raise on 3, not ideal but playable.

But passing first and then catching up with a jump preference is trap bidding of the worst kind.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[forgo]

first of all, this hand is 2.5 quick tricks and should always be opened!! 2nd when people give hands

such as this they should always give vunerability and imps match or whatever!!! not knowing vun, etc.. I bid 3 hearts

Imps Red.... always 4 hearts!!!

[MrAce]

I agree with those who believe 3♣ is competitive and clubs are at least as much as hearts if not more. If I am not sure I would raise to 4♣.

I can get along with 3♥ bidders but not with 4♥ bidders. 4♥ just....sounds way off yo me as Ken and Rainer explained why, to put it the polite way.