Four Suit Transfer Alert

[jerdonald]

My partner and I play 4 suit transfers and I know at one time you had

to alert that the responder may or may not have a 4 card major. Now I

understand that it's only required that an announcement must be made

before the opening bid. What are all the acbl alerts/announcements for

this bid?

 

Jerry D.

[kenberg]

My partner and I play 4 suit transfers and I know at one time you had

to alert that the responder may or may not have a 4 card major. Now I

understand that it's only required that an announcement must be made

before the opening bid. What are all the acbl alerts/announcements for

this bid?

 

Jerry D.

 

To clarify, you are speaking of an auction that begins 1NT-2C?

 

My own practice (not what you asked, I know) is that I do ot alert 2C but I do alert 2NT in 1N-2C-2D-2N and 1N-2C-2H-2N. In the first I explain that partner need not have a major, in the second I explain that partner need not have four spades and would usually bid 2S over 2H if he had them .This latter is to allow for the possibility that he has four spades but has a hand where if 2NT were not a transfer he would simply have raised 1NT to 2NT. I have had no compaints doing it this way, but as is often the case I do ot know what the rules currently require.

 

I also alert 2S in 1N-2C-2H-2S since a person unfamiliar with this approach might, perhaps, think that the 2S bid shows five rather than four.

[jerdonald]

kenberg,

Thanks for the reply.

 

I am speaking about the sequence that goes 1NT-2C.

 

The 2C may or may not be asking for a four card major. Responder

then may bid 2NT no matter what the opener bids. This is the way

we get to and stop at 2NT. When do we have to alert/announce?

 

Jerry D.

[TylerE]

 

The 2C may or may not be asking for a four card major.

 

I would disagree with this statement. 2♣ is *asking* for a 4 card major, full stop.

[Stephen Tu]

In ACBL, alert the 2nt rebid after 1nt-2c-2x-2nt under this circumstance. Don't alert 2♣ itself.

[msjennifer]

I would disagree with this statement. 2♣ is *asking* for a 4 card major, full stop.

2C asks for a major only if it is bid as Stayman .There is no full stop because 2C is " not necessarily" Stayman.Many modernists play it as a relay to find out the range of opener ,whether he holds a minimum or a maximum.There are quite a few who play 2C as Baron(suits up the line).Some old style players play 2C followed by 3C to show a weak long clubs hand.One has ones choice.No one can forcibly say that 2 C is always Stayman.I alert all my unnatural bids over 1NT (2C/D/H/S/NT etc ) since they are all artificial bids and opponents have every right to know the full explanation.

[Zelandakh]

2C asks for a major only if it is bid as Stayman .There is no full stop because 2C is " not necessarily" Stayman.

The point Tyler is making (I think) is that 2♣ shows a range of hands, most, but not all, of which hold a 4 card major. They will often clarify which hand type is held at their next turn to bid. The hands that are included depend on the rest of the NT structure. You alert when the regulations say you are far enough away from their standard, which in the USA is when the rebid shows a hand type that may not have a 4 card major.

[GrahamJson]

Presumably you should alert the fact that 2C is Stayman but does not guarentee a four card major. As a direct bid of 2NT shows diamonds going through Stayman is the only way of raising to 2NT.

[rmnka447]

+1 for Stephen Tu's comment.

 

You don't have to alert 2 ♣ Stayman as not necessarily asking for the majors. Back in the old days, as someone alluded, 2 ♣ Stayman followed by 3 of a minor showed a weak minor hand. 3 of a minor directly was forcing. More recently, people are apt to use some sort of transfer auction for weak hands, bid 3 of a minor directly with an invitational hand, and use 2 ♣ Stayman followed by a 3 of a minor rebid to show a forcing hand. So there always have been and are Stayman bidding sequnces made without a major.

 

But with your agreements, when 2 NT is bid after Stayman, the 1 NT bidder knows that responder may not have a major. That information needs to be available to your opponents, so it is the point where the alert needs to be made.

[johnu]

2C asks for a major only if it is bid as Stayman .There is no full stop because 2C is " not necessarily" Stayman.Many modernists play it as a relay to find out the range of opener ,whether he holds a minimum or a maximum.There are quite a few who play 2C as Baron(suits up the line).Some old style players play 2C followed by 3C to show a weak long clubs hand.One has ones choice.No one can forcibly say that 2 C is always Stayman.I alert all my unnatural bids over 1NT (2C/D/H/S/NT etc ) since they are all artificial bids and opponents have every right to know the full explanation.

 

Since this was an ACBL region question, 2♣ asking for a 4+ card major is not alertable. It doesn't say anything about the responder's hand. If responder then makes a bid that does not guarantee a 4 card major (e.g. 2NT/3♣/3♦) then that is alertable.

 

If 2♣ is some kind of range finder or Baron type of bid, it is alertable.

 

For more information, http://web2.acbl.org/documentLibrary/play/AlertChart.pdf

[Vampyr]

+1 for Stephen Tu's comment.

 

You don't have to alert 2 ♣ Stayman as not necessarily asking for the majors. Back in the old days, as someone alluded, 2 ♣ Stayman followed by 3 of a minor showed a weak minor hand. 3 of a minor directly was forcing. More recently, people are apt to use some sort of transfer auction for weak hands, bid 3 of a minor directly with an invitational hand, and use 2 ♣ Stayman followed by a 3 of a minor rebid to show a forcing hand. So there always have been and are Stayman bidding sequnces made without a major.

 

Your methods are very inefficient. Weak and strong hands can be bid with transfers. Invitational hands as well, if you are using super-accepts.

[nekthen]

EBU rules are slightly different. You must alert 2♣ if it is Stayman but does not promise a 4 card major. Otherwise you announce "Stayman"

[ggwhiz]

The sidebar for us is after 1nt - 2♣ - 2♥

 

2♠ shows exactly 4 with invitational values and 2nt denies 4 spades, invitational and we alert both.

 

I did think that all the others implied may or may not have a major and were no longer alertable but the alert system in general is such a mess that I've played in Sectional and Regional tournaments where the convention cards showed a bid like sandwich notrump as alertable or not depending on which stack of convention cards the organizers set out.

[Zelandakh]

EBU rules are slightly different. You must alert 2♣ if it is Stayman but does not promise a 4 card major. Otherwise you announce "Stayman"

Sorry Ken but you are wrong with this. In the EBU you announce "Stayman" regardless of whether a 4 card major is promised or not. The relevant regulation is 4E2:

 

A Stayman 2 bid is announced, but only in response to a natural 1NT opening where there

has been no intervention; and only where it is used to ask for a four card major. Opener says

“Stayman”. After such a 2 response a standard 2 rebid by opener is not alerted. Unusual

replies such as the opener bidding 2NT or higher or 2 showing spades but not denying hearts

should be alerted. Stayman is announced whether or not it shows a four card major.

[Vampyr]

Sorry Ken but you are wrong with this. In the EBU you announce "Stayman" regardless of whether a 4 card major is promised or not. The relevant regulation is 4E2:

 

A Stayman 2♣ bid is announced, but only in response to a natural 1NT opening where there

has been no intervention; and only where it is used to ask for a four card major. Opener says

“Stayman”. After such a 2♣ response a standard 2(M or any?) rebid by opener is not alerted. Unusual

replies such as the opener bidding 2NT or higher or 2♠ showing spades but not denying hearts

should be alerted. Stayman is announced whether or not it shows a four card major.

 

FYP. Your suit symbols did not show up.

 

Anyway the question is whether the 2NT bid that doesn't promise a 4CM is alertable. In my experience no one alerts but everyone asks at the end of the auction.

[jerdonald]

BBO forum,

Thanks for all the replies but I'm back to my original question.

 

Since 4 suit transfers is noted on our convention card we used

to have to alert "may or may not have a 4 card major" after the

2 club bid following a 1NT opener. I have heard recently that

this has been changed so that only an announcement is required

before the opening lead, irregardless of the final contract.

 

Jerry D.

[Stephen Tu]

About 4 of us have already answered your question above. You know the ACBL has this thing called a website where they have current alert chart and alert procedure documents where you can verify this if you don't believe us even though we all gave the same answer.

[msjennifer]

Since this was an ACBL region question, 2♣ asking for a 4+ card major is not alertable. It doesn't say anything about the responder's hand. If responder then makes a bid that does not guarantee a 4 card major (e.g. 2NT/3♣/3♦) then that is alertable.

 

If 2♣ is some kind of range finder or Baron type of bid, it is alertable.

 

For more information, http://web2.acbl.org/documentLibrary/play/AlertChart.pdf

Yes.Indeed the rules book now clearly lays down that a 2C Stayman bid need not be alerted as also any bid above 3NT need not be alerted.

[mycroft]

Several people have given the answer; and where to find it; if 2♣ asks for a major, don't Alert, whether or not you care about the answer. Any responder's rebid that does not promise a 4cM after Stayman is Alertable.

 

Side note: 2NT-3♣ Stayman or Puppet Stayman is not Alertable - but 1NT-3♣ *is* (because it's not the lowest level of clubs).

 

 

In answer to msjennifer above, however, "any bid above 3NT need not be Alerted" is overbroad, to say the least. Alertable non-bid calls (pass, double, redouble) are Alertable at any level at any time. Alertable openings, overcalls, and immediate responses are Alertable at any level. Alertable bids, starting with opener's rebid, are still Alertable; they must, however, be Delayed until before (declarer or dummy) or after (defenders) the opening lead (unless playing with screens).

 

Footnote:

I had my first "delayed Alert as defender" last week. It was even pretty boring: [hv=d=e&v=0&b=14&a=3n(broken%20minor)ppdp4s5c(1)5sppp]133|100|After opening lead, "I'm Alerting 5♣." "Yes?" "It's almost certainly pass/correct."[/hv]Of course, the next question was "what does 'pass/correct' mean?" Ugh.

 

[masse24]

Assuming a 15-17 No-Trump:

 

1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 3♥ clearly 8-9 points and a 4-4 ♥ fit

1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ - 3♠ clearly 8-9 points and a 4-4 ♠ fit

1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2♠ clearly 8-9 points and 4 spades (remember, opener could have both hearts and spades...)

1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2NT clearly 8-9 points and no 4-card major (Alert!)

1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ - 2NT clearly 8-9 points and may not have a 4-card major (Alert!)

1NT - 2♣ - 2♦ - 2NT clearly 8-9 points and may not have a 4-card major (Alert!)

 

Note that the latter three sequences need to be Alerted, because a Stayman sequence (in other treatments) always promises a four-card major, and these sequences do not. All sequences in which responder rebids 3NT are not Alertable and still promise a 4-card major. The only time that Stayman does not promise a four-card major is when responder's rebid is 2NT. This assumes, of course, that responder rebids 2♠ (with 4 ♠ and no ♥ fit) when opener responds 2♥ after Stayman.

[Zelandakh]

Assuming a 15-17 No-Trump:

...is one way of doing it. Here's another:-

 

1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 3♥ clearly INV and a 4-4 ♥ fit

1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ - 3♠ clearly INV and a 4-4 ♠ fit

1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2NT clearly INV and 4 spades (remember, opener could have both hearts and spades...)

1NT - 2♣ - 2♥ - 2♠ INV and no 4-card major or slammy with clubs(Alert!)

1NT - 2♣ - 2♠ - 2NT clearly INV and may not have a 4-card major (Alert!)

1NT - 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♠ INV and may not have a 4-card major or slammy with clubs (Alert!)

 

There are many other possibilities too, all with different advantages and disadvantages.