5/7 theory

[Fluffy]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa65haqj4d5caqj73&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1c(strong)p1n(8%2B%2C%205%2B!c)p2c(relay)p2d(4!d)p2h(relay)p2n(5422)p3c(keycard%20in%20clubs)p3s(2%20keycards%2C%20no%20!cQ)p]133|200[/hv]

 

IMPs, Partner has shown 8+ with 2245 shape, and we have all keycards. (♦Ace+♣King)

 

Now I have basically 3 options:

 

Blast 7♣ and hope ♥K is not on the left

Ask a lot of questions and end up in 6♣ if partner doesn't hold ♥K

Ask specific questions and end up in 5♣ if partner has no major King.

 

What do you think its best?

[Phil]

What methods are your opponents playing? Do you know for sure partner can't be well stocked in spades and diamonds?

[robert2734]

If I was losing or the underdog in the match I'd blast 7 ♣ .

[Cyberyeti]

What will partner tell me next if I just generally continue asking non specific questions ? Would be sad to find out pd had no major king, I signed off in 5 and he had ♦KQ for example or ♠QJ. ♠KQ makes 7.

 

Opening leader is as likely to have ♦KQ as ♠KQ if partner has none of those cards, so even if a spade lead will beat 6 you're far from certain to get it if you don't telegraph the problem.

 

I don't think I'm signing off in 5, I'll probably enquire some more and bid 6 without K♥, 7 with it unless I hear about ♠KQ.

 

Agree if I'm behind in the match, just bid 7.

[MrAce]

I think Cyber nailed it.

[Fluffy]

Yes, asking everything you will find everything except jacks. But chances of finding partner with ♠KQ or ♦KQ are very low.

 

This was a training session Phil it is just a theoric question, if you should try to play 6 on 5/7 hands when opponents are leading blind.

[Zelandakh]

Can I not bid 4♣ to ask about specific kings and follow up with 5♦ as an SSA in diamonds if ♦K and no major suit king is held? That would seem to cover all of the main possibilities. We have at least an entire extra level of space by starting RKCB with 3♣ - it would seem to be a shame not to use it somehow.

[Phil]

The reason I ask is because if I think my opponents arent likely to get to 6 that bidding a small slam could still be right.

 

All the opening leader knows is that responder has this shape and this strength. They can infer opener has a good hand and some club support and not diamonds, but with dummy hitting with 2245 the diamond tricks probably arent going away unless declarer has a deep trick source in a major.

 

Accordingly, you're getting a heart lead away from the king a lot here which is great for 6 but lousy for 7.

[WGF_Flame]

6 clubs cant be a bad contract (finesse heart twice and make), so get the information about K hearts.

[Cyberyeti]

6 clubs cant be a bad contract (finesse heart twice and make), so get the information about K hearts.

 

Except that on a spade lead, it can be just as good as 7♣

[robert2734]

a theoric question, if you should try to play 6 on 5/7 hands when opponents are leading blind.

 

On a hand that will make 5 or 7 depending on a finesse, shouldn't you try to be in 5 or 7? What is the theoric reason for trying to play in 6?

[Cyberyeti]

On a hand that will make 5 or 7 depending on a finesse, shouldn't you try to be in 5 or 7? What is the theoric reason for trying to play in 6?

 

Because 6 is cold if they fail to lead a spade or partner has ♠QJ and good if partner has Q♠ as 2 cards have to be wrong.

 

You have the advantage in the relay auction that nothing is known about declarer's hand so the lead is not obvious. You've already gone from 50:50 to something well above that for the small slam just on the chance of the wrong lead.

[Fluffy]

I could ask for ♥K , ♠K and ♠Q, playing 6♣ when dummy has ♠Q but 7 when he doesn't have it.

 

But I starting to think in the long run this decisions will tend to even out and no approach is clearly better.

[Cyberyeti]

I could ask for ♥K , ♠K and ♠Q, playing 6♣ when dummy has ♠Q but 7 when he doesn't have it.

 

But I starting to think in the long run this decisions will tend to even out and no approach is clearly better.

 

I suspect the approach you outline is double dummy correct, but the chance of getting the wrong lead means bidding 6 is best.

 

A little aside question.

 

Against a relay auction like this, say the Q♠ is shown by the bid of a red suit. Should double say "lead the suit doubled" or "lead a spade" ?

[Fluffy]

It is extremely rare for a queen to be asked when we don't have the king ourselves so I think it wouldn't be good, at least against us.

[Cyberyeti]

It is extremely rare for a queen to be asked when we don't have the king ourselves so I think it wouldn't be good, at least against us.

 

If specifically asked I agree, I was talking about if you're just asking general questions and it's the next card on the list to show.

[gszes]

32 32 AJ32 K5432 what contract do you want to be in opposite this hand (a dead min for the bidding) IMPS IMHO 6c is the place to be unless there is some specific reason we suspect a spade lead. IF we suspect a spade lead IMHO we should bid SEVEN clubs not 5 at IMPS. +17 imps when we make -13 when we lose and it is 5050. Those are great odds in anyone's game over a lifetime.

 

If we are behind it is just as useful to stop in 5 as it is to bid 7 (hoping for a big swing) so take your best guess and go with it though bidding the grand is much more likely to produce the largest swing (maybe even x/xx).