ATB - Hopeless 3NT

[perko90]

Vul: N-S Dlr: S

 

West:

K9

7

T765

KQ8742

 

East:

Q8764

AJ62

J43

A

 

The competitive auction went:

1♥-2♣-2♥-3NT;

All Pass

 

S led low spade from ATxx; N held Jxxx of C's. Down 3.

 

BTW, only 3rd time playing together.

[helene_t]

W should bid 3c as 2c overstates his strength.

[1eyedjack]

West is understrength for 2C. There is a tendency among inexperienced players to treat 2/1 overcalls the same as 1/1, but opposite a non-passed hand the experienced players keep them up to strength.

 

That said, East is hardly blameless in my view. Singleton Ace depresses the strength. He might have mentioned his Spades, but if he is going to follow up with 3N anyway over a 3C rebid then that is a side issue. Had West had a full value albeit minimum 2C overcall, I think that 3N would still have been a stretch. As the OP states, as it is it is a complete no-hoper.

[billw55]

2♣ and 3NT are both big overbids. 100% west.

 

I assume east actually opened 1♠, not 1♥.

 

edit: oops, badly misread auction

[Cyberyeti]

2♣ and 3NT are both big overbids. 100% west.

 

I assume east actually opened 1♠, not 1♥.

 

I think 1♥ and 2♥ are by the opps but not clear, same diagnosis whichever of us is right, not enough for 2♣

[perko90]

2♣ and 3NT are both big overbids. 100% west.

 

I assume east actually opened 1♠, not 1♥.

 

South opened 1♥ and had a full opener w/ 5 H's

[wank]

west is rather light for 2c but it's not a crime. 3nt is a huge overbid and i think it's a poor decision to ignore the spades.

[billw55]

Eh, right, I misread the auction. I need to stop posting in threads without diagrams.

 

2♣ is still a big overbid and the primary blame goes here, but now 3NT is also an overbid.

[ggwhiz]

2♣ is terrible opposite an unpassed hand, especially red.

 

3nt is not a big overbid on values but is completely mis-directed. Assuming you have to run clubs, your entries evaporate on a heart lead. My only game ambitions with that hand is in spades if partner can support with known heart shortness.

[neilkaz]

Both players overbid. The 2 level overcall with that weak hand is off the charts bad and the jump to game with a stiff ace in support is overly optimistic with a hand that really should be at least slightly better to jump to 3NT.

 

Blame goes to West for starting this mess by being at least a king shy of a proper 2 level overcall.

[perko90]

2♣ is terrible opposite an unpassed hand, especially red.

 

2♣ overcall is at favorable vul: E-W are NV; N-S are Vul.

[neilkaz]

2♣ overcall is at favorable vul: E-W are NV; N-S are Vul.

Regardless of vul, whom ever overcalled 2♣ with that junk should apologize to his PD.

[kenberg]

If I bid any number of clubs it would be 3C. But I don't think I would do that either.

 

Looking now at E, wank has already remarked about the spades and I agree. I expect one heart in dummy, and any time partner has three spades I want to be in spades, ruffing hearts in dummy. OK, I cannot ruff all of them w/o being over ruffed, but I can cash the heart ace and ruff two of them And then throw some red cards on partner's clubs. So 2S by E seems right.

 

After which who knows? It will be hard for W to convince E that he doesn't really have much of anything after his 2C overcall. But he must try. I don't know if 2S is passable on this auction but, after that 2C bid, W might well consider it. On a heart lead they might survive.

 

Heart lead to my ace, ruff a heart , club to my ace, ruff a heart, top clubs throwing diamonds, maybe the clubs split, then another club throwing another diamond. Could work, dream big. well, S has four spades but he didn't have to have. And maybe they will go on to 3H. Maybe.

 

Anyway,back to W, for me that is not a 2C bid. Not close.

[ahydra]

I'm with neilkaz in that both hands are simply too light for their bids. I don't mind a 3C overcall with West, but 2C requires about another king. East should try 2S, not 3NT.

 

ahydra

[helene_t]

2s by e would probably be passable so 3nt is not crazy.

[rmnka447]

2s by e would probably be passable so 3nt is not crazy.

It depends on your agreements for a new suit over an overcall. If you play a new suit is NF, not forward going then certainly East has a tougher bid.

 

However, if you're playing a new suit is NF constructive, then there's less of a problem if West passes. In that situation, if West can't find a call over 2 ♠, then 3 NT probably isn't a good contract.

 

IMO both players have overbid.

 

However, I would give East the lion's share of the blame. East values are more illusory. ♥ AJ62 is less a double stopper than one might think with North raising South. North has enough ♥ to lead through East's hand to render the ♥ J questionable as a second stopper. Also, the stiff ♣ A automatically creates a blockage and may be a problem in terms of setting up and cashing any ♣ tricks West has. Give West a solid if nondescript overcall such as ♠ Kxx ♥ x ♦ Axxx ♣ KQ10xx and 3 NT is no bargain. East's 3 NT very much depends on setting up and running the ♣ suit as East's holdings outside of the ♥ suit don't suggest any other source of tricks (i.e. bad suits).

[Phil]

2C is fine but with a 64 I'd bid 3.

 

3N obviously incompatible with 2C being this light. 2S seems obvious.

[Fluffy]

West is an ace short for his bidding, East is a club short, I think west has more blame.

[fourdad]

W should bid 3c as 2c overstates his strength.

 

OR, the partnership should have a better defined overcall protocol. I prefer weaker lead directing overcalls w/ regular pds, hence E would not count the W hand for strength and would read club shortness with heart length as a misfit hand. How does N-S do if E passes 2H?

 

Would love to see the whole hand.

[billw55]

OR, the partnership should have a better defined overcall protocol. I prefer weaker lead directing overcalls w/ regular pds, hence E would not count the W hand for strength and would read club shortness with heart length as a misfit hand. How does N-S do if E passes 2H?

 

Would love to see the whole hand.

That might work as an agreement in an experienced partnership. But in a casual or new partnership, no reasonable player will expect 2♣ to include a raggedy 8 count.

[Caitlynne]

I am not sure what the question is since one is not stated, but I think the issue lies in the last comment - i.e., that this is a new partnership. Clearly, expectations about what overcalls show are not shared among you and your partner. Clearly, East expected more of West's hand when he/she bid 3NT. West would likely argue that East should have had more honor strength and a more suitable club holding for the 3NT bid.

 

The stiff Ace of clubs is not a good holding, and I believe that 3NT was a poor bid. Even if West had held another card - e.g., the King of diamonds - the contract does not look to be a favorite due to entry/transportation difficulties.

[fourdad]

That might work as an agreement in an experienced partnership. But in a casual or new partnership, no reasonable player will expect 2♣ to include a raggedy 8 count.

 

Is there an echo in here? :rolleyes:

[msjennifer]

Both 2 C overcall (a bit underpowered) and the 3NT bid (which is a far worse bid) need to be blamed for want of understanding of basics of bidding in a competitive auction.

[miamijd]

I think others have pretty much nailed this one.

 

2C is a truly awful overcall. If you overcall on hands like this, you'll end up too high when partner has a good hand and go for way too many telephone numbers when partner has a poor hand. Substitute the Jc for a small club and now you might think about overcalling. At least you have a one-loser suit opposite partner's expected doubleton, so you won't get Xed as often, and if partner has a holding like Ax of clubs, you have a source of trix in NT.

 

3NT is similarly an overbid. Ax or Axx of clubs would be far preferable, and even then, 2S or 2NT seem more reasonable. As it is, I think your only choice is to bid 2S. It's ugly on that shabby spade suit, but if partner has decent support, you might have a game. As it is, partner will pass 2S, and you're in decent shape. Hopefully, the opps will bid 3H and let your side defend.

 

50% charge to both I would say.

[MrAce]

Agree with others.

What surprised me the most was, the guy did not bid his spades when he held 4 of the enemy suit and they bid/raised this suit. Pd is short in hearts and very likely to hold 3 card spades (not in the actual deal)