How to bid this?

[661_Pete]

OK, what's best here please?

[hv=pc=n&s=s3hkjt985d54caqj8&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1dp1hp3dp]133|200[/hv]

I don't want to say how bidding actually progressed - it's too embarrassing! Let's just say - this is one occasion when I screwed up, big-time. I hope there aren't too many more of those!

[ahydra]

3H is generally played as GF showing a 6-card suit in this position, which sounds like what you've got. If partner supports you could try for slam. If not just pass 3NT.

 

ahydra

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

if you are sure, that partner wont pass 3H, this is your best bid,

the alternative is either 4D or 4S (splinter), in both cases you

bury the heart suit, but at least you give yourself a chance in

finding 6D.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[broze]

There is no reasonable alternative to 3♥ now. And I wouldn't call the hand a misfit when you have a known diamond fit!

 

If p supports hearts you are worth another move. If he bids 3N then he likely has a singleton. Therefore you have a lot wasted so I would respect that and pass.

[StevenG]

3H is generally played as GF showing a 6-card suit in this position

Pete plays Acol, so I would expect his partner to play 3♦ as non-forcing.

[wank]

Pete plays Acol, so I would expect his partner to play 3♦ as non-forcing.

 

indeed so, as does everyone else.

 

however, once you don't pass 3D you're in a game force, irrespective of whether you're playing 2/1, acol, or snap.

 

yes, acol's not the best system but it's still possible to play acol in a more or less absurd manner.

 

 

 

anyway, back to the question, over 3H if partner bids 3NT, you should bid 4d.

[661_Pete]

Pete plays Acol, so I would expect his partner to play 3♦ as non-forcing.

Sorry, yes, I should have said it is Acol.

[kenberg]

Sorry, yes, I should have said it is Acol.

 

Sure, but I think the 3D is non-forcing if you are playing on Mars, so it's ok. Edit: I see from below that I should have said unless they play KS on Mars.

 

And I just sent a message off to a partner to make sure that he would then play the 3H as forcing.

We had an auction the other day that went

1H 1S

3H ?

 

I wanted to bid 3S forcing but I wasn't sure if he would treat it as such. So I raised to 4H on my stiff, off 1. Had I been confident that 3S would be forcing, we could have played in 4S off 1, or 3NT off 1. He had six hearts and one spade to complement my six spades and one heart. Some double dummy lines might even have brought the contracts in, any of them.

 

Anyway, a forcing 3H on your hand seems right. I don't play acol, but forcing seems like the right agreement for 3H and then bidding it seems right.

[StevenG]

indeed so, as does everyone else.

Sorry - misread ahydra's post.

[Zelandakh]

indeed so, as does everyone else.

Not everyone...

[Stephen Tu]

K-S plays the minor jump rebid as a rock crusher GF hand. The non-forcing invitational hands are put through fragment reverses and forcing 2♣ rebid. Only somewhat well known system I know of that arranges rebids this way.

[mike777]

3h seems normal now.

 

 

If pard rebids 3nt...our next call will be more difficult

 

Axx...x....AKQJxx...Kxx

 

even less has chances for 6d

[masse24]

3♥ -- which should be a GF.

Except for a few outliers (my favorite is below) I would expect my partners to play it as a GF.

 

The question was after 1♥1♠3♥3♠ What does it show?

Answer- it shows a big misfit and an argument developing. The bidding has all the

classic signs of a tug o war. Someone has to give way...and the sooner this happens,the better.

[GrahamJson]

Having played Acol for many years I can confirm that 3H in this sequence is forcing, so is the obvious bid.

 

On a related matter, I used to play a jump rebid of three of a minor as forcing. This was combined with strong openings of 3C and 3D, similar to the 3C opening in Blue Club, whilst an opening 2NT showed a minor suit pre-empt. Obviously this was not standard Acol, but it worked well. (Other two level openings were multi and Tartan Twos, which led to various adventures.)

[msjennifer]

We all know that 3D is a passable bid.If it is so then I can not understand how 3H a rebid in the same suit can be taken as game forcing.What is responder supposed to bid on xxx ,AQJ9876,void,xxx? In this particular hand if a game force is to be made then it should be in a new suit.Actually I don't mind bidding 4C .If partner has xx or xxx in hearts he will bid 4H.I don't mind playing in 5D with a singleton in spades and xx in D.I am certainly going to bid a game on this holding even at the cost of bypassing 3 NT.

[GrahamJson]

We all know that 3D is a passable bid.If it is so then I can not understand how 3H a rebid in the same suit can be taken as game forcing.What is responder supposed to bid on xxx ,AQJ9876,void,xxx? In this particular hand if a game force is to be made then it should be in a new suit.Actually I don't mind bidding 4C .If partner has xx or xxx in hearts he will bid 4H.I don't mind playing in 5D with a singleton in spades and xx in D.I am certainly going to bid a game on this holding even at the cost of bypassing 3 NT.

 

No system can cope with every situation. In this case the argument is that with a weak hand and a misfit you pass 3D. Once you bid on it should be game forcing. This is a much more useful, and frequent, use of a 3H bid rather than trying to land on a pinhead in 3H. Sure, occasionally it might be nice to be able to end the auction in 3H, as in the example given, but that will be pretty rare.

[Caitlynne]

It is a fundamental principle of standard bidding that, once opener jumps to show substantial honor strength and a semi-solid or stronger suit, the partnership can no longer debate about which strain to play in at a part-score contract. Thus, 3H is forcing and, with a reasonably good 6 card suit, it is the clear bid. If partner cannot support hearts, diamonds will surely be a suitable trump suit.

 

If partner can raise hearts, a cue bid of 5C is pretty clear. If partner must show a card (e.g., 3S potentially in exploration of NT or an advance cue bid agreeing hearts), you can cooperate with 3NT. If partner bids again, you have enough to drive to slam.

 

If partner retreats to 4D, I would try 5C - a cue bid in support of diamonds since there are no new suits at the 5 level.

[nekthen]

We all know that 3D is a passable bid.If it is so then I can not understand how 3H a rebid in the same suit can be taken as game forcing.What is responder supposed to bid on xxx ,AQJ9876,void,xxx? In this particular hand if a game force is to be made then it should be in a new suit.Actually I don't mind bidding 4C .If partner has xx or xxx in hearts he will bid 4H.I don't mind playing in 5D with a singleton in spades and xx in D.I am certainly going to bid a game on this holding even at the cost of bypassing 3 NT.

 

Bid 3♥ over 1♦

[Cyberyeti]

Bid 3♥ over 1♦

 

Splinter

[rmnka447]

3 ♥ which forces to game or at least 4 ♦ in a pinch, no reason partner can't have a doubleton ♥ or bid 3 ♠ looking for 3 NT if you have a ♣ stop.

[msjennifer]

Bid 3♥ over 1♦

Your suggestion is wrong because 1D - 3 H is a splinter bid showing a singleton or void in heart with Diamonds as agreed suit and slam oriented .What do you bid on Axx,x,KQJxxx,Kxx when P opens 1 D? Or do you suggest a direct 4NT on such a hand.?

[Stephen Tu]

Meaning of 1♦-3♥ is dependent on partnership agreement. Its meaning has changed over the years, splinter is common these days but in older days it was played much like 1♦-4♥, a preemptive bid, just less length than 4♥ typically.

 

As for the question as what to do with your example hand, the answer is to bid 4♥ and try to make it, which it will sometimes. Partner can come up with ace of a black suit, a couple pitches on the diamonds, and maybe KH or working hook. Or other ways to cover 4 losers. Or I suppose you can bid 3♥ then 4♥, I don't know if most partnerships have really strong agreements on this sequence of the difference.

 

The reason no one (non PhilG division) plays 3♥ as non-forcing is that it's just extremely low utility. You are catering to hands that make exactly 9 tricks in hearts but not 10 or more, not 9 tricks in nt, and hands that make 9 tricks in hearts but not in diamonds. And I suppose hands that go down fewer tricks in hearts than in diamonds. This can happen, certainly, but the number of these is tiny compared to the number of hands with 6 hearts that don't have enough texture to insist on hearts, where 3nt might be better. You want to have a bid that unambiguously shows 6+ H rather than sticking all forcing calls into 3♠. Plus this gives you a forcing call on slam auctions. It's just not worth it to lose the call to win on the sliver of hands that make 9 tricks in hearts but nothing else.

 

If the hand were weaker and 3♥ was played as splinter, some partnerships would have the option of bidding a 2♥ weak jump shift despite the 7th heart. Actual hand you posted I would consider a bit too strong for a 2♥ wjs that's normally 6 cds.

[Zelandakh]

Your suggestion is wrong because 1D - 3 H is a splinter bid showing a singleton or void in heart with Diamonds as agreed suit and slam oriented .What do you bid on Axx,x,KQJxxx,Kxx when P opens 1 D? Or do you suggest a direct 4NT on such a hand.?

The meaning of 3♥ is dependent on agreements. There are many alternatives for your example hand - a simple 2♦ inverted raise; a 3♣ response that shows an undisclosed splinter raise; various schemes in which the GF splinter raises are included in a 2♥, 2♠ or 2NT response along with other hand types; relay schemes based around a 1♥ or 1NT response; and probably some others too.

 

Since we are talking about Acol, the traditional meaning is a weak hand with long hearts. In recent times, both the splinter as well as the fit jump have overtaken this in popularity, at least at a high level. At club level outside of London, I would guess that natural and weak is still the default choice for most pairs.

[mathboy]

We all know that 3D is a passable bid.If it is so then I can not understand how 3H a rebid in the same suit can be taken as game forcing.What is responder supposed to bid on xxx ,AQJ9876,void,xxx? In this particular hand if a game force is to be made then it should be in a new suit.Actually I don't mind bidding 4C .If partner has xx or xxx in hearts he will bid 4H.I don't mind playing in 5D with a singleton in spades and xx in D.I am certainly going to bid a game on this holding even at the cost of bypassing 3 NT.

3H is GF，so you need to bid 4H（not strong enough for GF，just to play).

[kenberg]

We all know that 3D is a passable bid.If it is so then I can not understand how 3H a rebid in the same suit can be taken as game forcing.What is responder supposed to bid on xxx ,AQJ9876,void,xxx? In this particular hand if a game force is to be made then it should be in a new suit.Actually I don't mind bidding 4C .If partner has xx or xxx in hearts he will bid 4H.I don't mind playing in 5D with a singleton in spades and xx in D.I am certainly going to bid a game on this holding even at the cost of bypassing 3 NT.

 

If you play that 3H over 3D is non-forcing then there will be hands where this will work well. And there will be hands, I think far more hands, where it will work badly.

 

I will illustrate with a different situation. I was playing the other day with a partner who likes 2H-2S, uncontested, to be non-forcing. I opened 2H on a 1=6=4=2 hand with a strongish heart suit. He bid 2S. I duly alerted and explained that we play it as non-forcing. Upon further inquiry I explained that as I understood our agreement it was not even particularly constructive, simply to play. 2S was passed out. He had eight spades headed by the KQ. A success? As it turned out, yes. He can be held to 8 tricks but he made 9. I can, perhaps, take eight tricks in hearts (he has the diamond KT opposite my Qxxx, the J is well placed, I can lead my spade, establish a spade trick, and get to it. for five heart tricks, two diamonds and a spade, but timing may be an issue) and no way I can make 9. They can make 3C but didn't bid it.

 

So sure, such hands arise and it can work out, maybe with a little help. But I also get good hands with a six card spade suit and when partner opens 2H they are hard to bid if 2S is to play. I can live with various agreements, as long as I know what they are, but I have preferences. I think playing 2S as forcing when partner opens a weak 2H is better, and I think playing 3H as forcing after 1D-1H-3D is better.

 

And in both cases, forcing is standard.