Negative double or not?

[iandayre]

There is nothing wrong with a negative double with this shape. In this auction double shows either both majors, or one major and a club fit. This is far more than a 50-50 treatment.

 

I see several contend otherwise. Sorry, but this is a gap in your bridge knowledge. The only negative double auction that promises both unbid suits is 1C opener, 1D overcall.

[notproven]

Addition - see prior post:

 

4) A negative double at the one level shows 6+ points. A negative double at the two level shows 10+ points. West doesn't come close on this hand, even if you like to shade your bids. 3♣ is the bid. If East has a big hand with 4♠, you'll hear 3♠ next.

[Cyberyeti]

There is nothing wrong with a negative double with this shape. In this auction double shows either both majors, or one major and a club fit. This is far more than a 50-50 treatment.

 

I see several contend otherwise. Sorry, but this is a gap in your bridge knowledge. The only negative double auction that promises both unbid suits is 1C opener, 1D overcall.

 

This is a style/system thing NOT just bridge.

 

People who come from a background in other systems will quite often play "both unbid suits" negative doubles.

[Stephen Tu]

This is a style/system thing NOT just bridge.

 

People who come from a background in other systems will quite often play "both unbid suits" negative doubles.

 

Which systems are those? Let's make the original hand same shape but say an ace stronger so no one can possibly disagree about the need to take a call. How can you possibly handle this, if double guarantees both majors? Are you going to overload the cue bid?

 

I can't see why one would want to put more restrictions on the lowest possible call with the most room to disambiguate.

[notproven]

This series of posts illustrates why bidding on BBO is so horrendous: most players make up their own systems and call it "Bridge". The original post is a beginner question about 2/1. So I went to Mike Lawrence's book on 2/1 - THE BOOK. You might also want to read Eddie Kantar or Marty Bergen or some other World Class player/writer, but they'll all give you the same answer to this beginner problem. Check my posts; I didn't just make up something, I confirmed all of it in Mike's book first.

 

Granted, many of truly expert pairs have adopted useful variations: supported by pages of system notes and hours of discussion and play. But, first they all read about the system and thoroughly understood the principles. That's why they win world class events, not because they've picked up a few dubious tips from the local club. If you want to deviate from standard, fine, but make clear what is standard first, then tell us why your variation plays better.

[MrAce]

Playing negative double to promise both unbid suits is a textbook example of how to waste a valuable tool such as negative DBL imo.

 

I would dbl 2 ♦ with W hand on any day that ends with Y.

[MrAce]

Addition - see prior post:

 

4) A negative double at the one level shows 6+ points. A negative double at the two level shows 10+ points. West doesn't come close on this hand, even if you like to shade your bids. 3♣ is the bid. If East has a big hand with 4♠, you'll hear 3♠ next.

 

How did you come up with this nonsense about 10+ hcp requirement for a negative dbl at 2 level? I personally know it is bs but can you give some reference to it? I just googled and checked the links below to see if there are others who advocate bs requirements such as 10+, haven't seen one yet. So again, please enlighten us where did you get this opinion?

 

 

http://www.bridgehands.com/N/Negative_Double.htm

 

http://www.rpbridge.net/5a00.htm

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_double

 

https://www.larryco.com/bridge-learning-center/detail/27

 

http://www.bridgebum.com/negative_double.php

 

https://www.mrbridge.co.uk/library/neg_doubles.pdf

[Cyberyeti]

Which systems are those? Let's make the original hand same shape but say an ace stronger so no one can possibly disagree about the need to take a call. How can you possibly handle this, if double guarantees both majors? Are you going to overload the cue bid?

 

I can't see why one would want to put more restrictions on the lowest possible call with the most room to disambiguate.

 

Acol for example (where the club shows 4 and you don't tend to double with support, certainly not 5).

 

If you were 4-3 in the majors you might double anyway, but is not routine with 4-2 or 4-1.

 

An A better I would bid a natural 2N with ♦ ATx and 3♦ with one of the other aces.

[neilkaz]

Playing negative double to promise both unbid suits is a textbook example of how to waste a valuable tool such as negative DBL imo.

 

I would dbl 2 ♦ with W hand on any day that ends with Y.

As would I.

[notproven]

MrAce:

 

Start with Barry Crane. Over the yearsI played at least 2,000 practice hands against him when he wanted to break in a new partner for a major tournament. I'm not pretending that I was in his class, but he didn't believe in wasting his time with fools. I'll try, sometimes. In your case, I suggest you actually read Mike Lawrence, Marty Bergen, Eddie Kantar, Fred Stewart. Almost any bid that forces to the 2 level promises more than a minimum. Basic Bridge, as taught by world class players.

[MrAce]

deleted

[MrAce]

MrAce:

 

Start with Barry Crane. Over the yearsI played at least 2,000 practice hands against him when he wanted to break in a new partner for a major tournament. I'm not pretending that I was in his class, but he didn't believe in wasting his time with fools. I'll try, sometimes. In your case, I suggest you actually read Mike Lawrence, Marty Bergen, Eddie Kantar, Fred Stewart. Almost any bid that forces to the 2 level promises more than a minimum. Basic Bridge, as taught by world class players.

 

Before you call me fool, stop the bs and show me the articles instead of spewing silly requirements and putting the names of good players behind it! I am calling you out for it! Show us! Show us where did they require 10+ hcp for a 2 level negative double!! And stop backpedaling. You wrote 2 level negative DBL requires 10+ hcp!

 

OK, Let me do it for you!!

 

Did you say Mike Lawrence? There you go! Mike is showing with an example of minimum requirement of a negative double at 2 level. If your math is better than your opinions you can count the 7 HCP!!

 

http://webpages.mcgi...les%20(Lawrence).pdf

 

Did you say Marty Bergen? Sure! here you go.

 

http://www.cincybrid...ive_Doubles.pdf

 

I am too busy to copy and paste the links of ALL names you listed just to prove your nonsense, but I will give a name who is known by the entire world to be the MOST conservative bidder, Alvin Roth, even A.Roth in his conservative style writes in his article that 2 level negative double requires at least an 8 HCP!!!

 

http://csbnews.org/n...n-roth/?lang=en

 

So we are still waiting for you to provide something.... anything.... that supports your nonsense!

[mathboy]

Neg double is fine.It only promises one 4 cards major(not 44）after opp's two over one overcall or weak jump overcall.You can check this from Mike Lawance's book.

[msjennifer]

I agree with Cyberyetis argument.Even keeping in mind that 1C might be a prepared bid,it is too timid to pass or make a negative double.A straight forward bid of 3 C is a standout bid.i cannot understand the reasoning behind first doubling and then running or so-called "correcting to club" which can easily be confusing unless discussed previously and more so with a non established partnership.A 3 C bid leaves the opener to bid or describe his hand.Wests hand is a 8 loser hand opposite a prepared club and as per LTC 18-(7+8)=3. So there is absolutely nothing wrong in making a bid of of 3C over RHO'S 2D bid.The 3C bid does not deny a four card major suit and promises excellent club support.

[msjennifer]

Neg double is fine.It only promises one 4 cards major(not 44）after opp's two over one overcall or weak jump overcall.You can check this from Mike Lawance's book.

And so it means that one expects a new partner to have read all the books that one has read ?

[johnu]

And so it means that one expects a new partner to have read all the books that one has read ?

 

I would absolutely expect a real life advanced or expert player to know what a negative double of 2♦ shows, and for a first game together, this isn't something that I would think about bringing up when filling out a convention card when there are so many other things to discuss.

 

I would even expect intermediate players who have been playing clubs and local tournaments to know what this shows. Either they should have learned it when they were taking lessons as a beginner, or they had it come up during a game. I would try to simplify my bids as much as possible, but there are limits to how much you can avoid and I would make a negative double with this hand because I really don't like 3♣. At worst, we'll have a disaster this time but partner will know the next time, and the next time, and the time after that.

[Stephen Tu]

This series of posts illustrates why bidding on BBO is so horrendous: most players make up their own systems and call it "Bridge". The original post is a beginner question about 2/1. So I went to Mike Lawrence's book on 2/1 - THE BOOK. You might also want to read Eddie Kantar or Marty Bergen or some other World Class player/writer, but they'll all give you the same answer to this beginner problem. Check my posts; I didn't just make up something, I confirmed all of it in Mike's book first.

 

Which Mike Lawrence book? His Workbook on the 2/1 system? Or some other text? Please quote a page number, because I cannot find it. I perused my copy, he like gives 2 negative double auction examples, neither of which is 1d-2c-dbl or 1c-2d-dbl. I don't see anywhere where he claims negative double has to guarantee both unbid suits.

 

Every reference I have, negative double does not guarantee both unbid suits unless specifically the auction 1c-(1d)-dbl. In other situations, you can double with one unbid major with sufficient strength for the level, and either a stopper in the overcalled suit, so you can bid NT later, or support for partner's opening suit, so you can take a preference. You just need a reasonable backup plan if partner bids the major you don't have. Reserving dbl only for those hands that have both unbid suits IMO is underutilizing the cheapest most flexible call by a ton, and leaving a lot of hands essentially unbiddable. You support partner's minor instead, and take a horrible MP score because the major fit scores better. Or you decline to invite because it's too thin to invite 11 trick minor game but if you knew partner had major fit you'd take a shot at the major game. You have some auction like 1c-(2s)-?? And you can't double because you don't have diamonds, so you bid 3nt and miss the superior 4H. Or 1c-(3d)-? you want to bid game in major if you have fit, 3nt/5c if not, how can you cater to both possibilities without being able to double with one major only?

 

I've read a ton of bridge books in my life from a lot of those authors. I think I would have remembered if negative double always guaranteed both unbid majors.

 

 

Granted, many of truly expert pairs have adopted useful variations: supported by pages of system notes and hours of discussion and play. But, first they all read about the system and thoroughly understood the principles. That's why they win world class events, not because they've picked up a few dubious tips from the local club. If you want to deviate from standard, fine, but make clear what is standard first, then tell us why your variation plays better.

 

I learned almost exclusively from books from top class authors. I didn't pick up the idea that negative double doesn't guarantee both majors from some total random at the club. I can't see how guaranteeing both majors is playable. What can possibly be wrong with doubling, then pulling back to clubs if partner bids hearts? What does that even mean if double guarantees both majors, you play that as a game try in the major I guess?

 

I'm pretty sure how I play is standard. Guaranteeing unbid suits on all auctions is non-std. If you dispute this, please give title, publication date, and page numbers of the book supporting your thesis.

First 3 books I looked at, Modern Bridge Conventions by Root/Pavlicek, Washington Standard by Robinson, Bidding Dictionary by Truscott, all support my contention as standard. I can supply page numbers if you don't believe me. I doubt any of the books in my collection say otherwise.

[Stephen Tu]

Acol for example (where the club shows 4 and you don't tend to double with support, certainly not 5).

 

If you were 4-3 in the majors you might double anyway, but is not routine with 4-2 or 4-1.

 

An A better I would bid a natural 2N with ♦ ATx and 3♦ with one of the other aces.

 

So what advantage are you gaining by promising a 3rd card in the other major? When does this actually win you the board?

 

Granted in Acol you get away with it a lot more since you are taking 4333/4xx4 hands out of the equation in the common style. But still partner can be 4xx5 and one can construct hands of that shape where spades is the only game that makes. If you can't double just because you are short in one of the majors I can't see how you find the major on these. Or if partner is 4xx6 and you are say 4234 or something and are barred from doubling.

 

 

 

[mathboy]

And so it means that one expects a new partner to have read all the books that one has read ?

Yes,he should have.That is trust.Trust a new partner until you find he is not so advanced.If not,he may think you do not read books.

[helene_t]

I wonder where the 10+ meme comes from. Maybe it is an Acol or K/S thing (10+ means GF opposite the 15-19 balanced variant of the opening) or a Goren thing (10+ means inv+ opposite the 13-15 balanced variant). In a 15-17 system like modern SA it doesn't really make sense. 6+ or 7+ or 11+ I could think of a rationale for.

[Cyberyeti]

So what advantage are you gaining by promising a 3rd card in the other major? When does this actually win you the board?

 

It means you feel the best description of the hand is to show both majors, eg a 3442 hand only worth one bid where you will pass 2M.

[helene_t]

If partner has an 18-19 balanced hand we obviously want to be in game. He is likely to have a doubleton in diamonds so he can reopen, but with three diamonds he might pass. Requiring a stronger hand for a negative double means that opener has to reopen with any balanced 18 count. That caries risks.

 

If partner has a balanced 12-14, dbl might land us in a too high 3♣ contract. But if they don't double us or we only go one down and 2♦ was making then it is ok.

 

If partner has an unbalanced hand short in diamonds, he will reopen anyway and having passed we will have to show extras now. That could take us too high. Double at least will allow us to stop in 3♣, unless partner thinks that doubled followed by 3♣ shows a strong hand.

 

I am wondering how it will go if partner is 4414 and minimum. If we double and next hand raises, might he bid 3♥? That would take us to 4♠. But maybe we will make it.

 

All things considered, and after having read the comments by Timo, I am changing my vote to double. 3♣ could work if we belong in 4♣ or 5♣ and next hand is about to raise to 3♦, but I think that dbl will let us find a club contract most of the time while 3♣ would often lose a spade fit.

[kenberg]

Often there is a mixture of judgment questions and agreement questions. So it is here.

 

My partner opens 1C, my RHO calls 2D. I have a stiff heart. I don't have to be able to see through cards to figure that partner is highly likely to hove exactly four hearts in his hand. If he had five, he would have opened one heart, especially since from my club holding it seems unlikely partner holds six clubs. If he has only three hearts, and this is it's possible of course, then there are a lot of hearts on my left. So I bid, until I learn otherwise, on the assumption that partner has four hearts. He could also have four spades. So I would like to double.

 

Can I do so safely? Yes, I think so. In reasonable safety, as long as partner does not think that I must be 4-4. I start by assuming LHO will not raise diamonds and partner bids his major at the 2 level. If partner has four spades to go with his presumed four hearts he will, I hope, bid 2S expecting that if the auction continues he can then bid 3H letting us play at the 3 level in whichever major I have, in this case spades. But if my neg double had the same shape except with four hearts and one spade, we will still be fine.

 

But I must be prepared for the auction to get more exciting. If partner has both majors and a big hand he can bid 3S. With a bigger hand, 3D. When he holds four hearts but not four spades and a big hand, that's the case here, he might well bid 4H. OK, that consumes some space, too bad about that, but I can now bid 5C. I don't know if we can find 6C, someone has to make a leap of faith to get there, but we will be in a decent contract.

Or maybe after my negative double my LHO jumps to 4D and partner bids 4H. Not everyday, but it could happen. OK, this is not as big a hand, or does not have to be as big a hand, as the free leap to 4H. But it's not nothing. The opponent's values seem to be in diamonds, there is some shape on the hand, partner must (is highly likely to) have at least four clubs on this auction, he has values, 5C is very comfortable.

 

No guarantees on anything, but the negative double looks fine to me. Finding 6C? Maybe, maybe not.

[Stephen Tu]

It means you feel the best description of the hand is to show both majors, eg a 3442 hand only worth one bid where you will pass 2M.

 

How is this an advantage to constrain your negative doubles to these shapes? What's wrong with including additional shapes, and bidding nt or supporting original opening suit if partner doesn't bid the major you were hoping for? If you have adequate strength and shape to make the correction and land in a reasonable spot, what is going to go wrong?

 

Why should the negative doubler be always required to pass partner's 2 of a major? What should rebidding 2nt or 3 of opener's minor mean, if playing your style?

 

We who allow negative double on lots of shapes double on the same hands you do, plus many more. You have to show us how this hurts us, how your restriction allows you to reach superior contracts on some hands. What class of hands are you actually gaining on?

 

[Cyberyeti]

How is this an advantage to constrain your negative doubles to these shapes? What's wrong with including additional shapes, and bidding nt or supporting original opening suit if partner doesn't bid the major you were hoping for? If you have adequate strength and shape to make the correction and land in a reasonable spot, what is going to go wrong?

 

Why should the negative doubler be always required to pass partner's 2 of a major? What should rebidding 2nt or 3 of opener's minor mean, if playing your style?

 

We who allow negative double on lots of shapes double on the same hands you do, plus many more. You have to show us how this hurts us, how your restriction allows you to reach superior contracts on some hands. What class of hands are you actually gaining on?

 

The problem with being 4243 is that the auction goes 1♣-(2♦)-X-(4♦) and now you're on a complete guess as to whether you have any fit at all in the majors. At least playing the X semi 2 suited or better you know you have a 4-3 fit and very likely 4-4.

 

It's not a box of chocolates over a 3♦ raise where partner bids 3♠ and I have 4 hearts and no diamond stop, can easily get to 5♣ when I want to be elsewhere.

 

Of course doubler isn't required to pass, but I need a diamond stop for 2N. I have the advantage that partner won't have a weak NT as we would open one. Rebidding partner's minor would be maybe 10-12 with 4 clubs and probably no diamond stop, a bit better than this hand.