Negative double or not?

[dickiegera]

[hv=pc=n&w=skj75h6dt62cqjt75&e=sa6hkq98dacak8632&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=1c2dpp3hpp4cp5cppp]266|200|This was our bidding[/hv]

 

 

Would a negative double by West at his first turn been better?

If so East would have bid 4 Hearts [or 3 Hearts] after the double and West corrects

to Clubs.

Can we still get to our 6 Club slam?

 

 

Comments

[helene_t]

IMO Wests hand is a bit weak for a negative double. Dbl would not be wrong but I prefer pass.

 

I don't like East's 3♥ bid, though, I think it shows a purer hand and five hearts.

 

A plausible auctions IMO:

 

pass-dbl

3♦-3♥

4♣-4♦

... (will end in 5♣ or 6♣)

 

After it starts

pass-3♥ (as in the actual auction) I don't think East can stop below slam although it is of course a lot easier when one can see both hands.

[Cyberyeti]

Are you really not allowed to bid 3♣ over 2♦ ?

[johnu]

What's going on with the bidding? N/S are now bidding clubs at the 4 and 5 level???

 

Assuming West is the one who gently corrected to 4♣, you can't get to a club slam with West as a partner who can't evaluate the strength of the hand. :(

[rmnka447]

I don't think that West has done anything wrong in the auction. The problem with a negative double isn't on this hand, but on a hand where West holds the same cards but opener holds a minimum hand. Then there's a pretty big risk you'll get too high.

 

East has a huge hand -- 3 losers -- good enough to open 2 ♣ if so desired IMO. So after the essentially undefined 4 ♣ preference, how about East making a slam try with a 4 ♦ cue? West can still signoff in 5 ♣ with a yucky hand. Then even with 7 HCP, West should find a 4 ♠ cue because the big club fit and shortness in opener's 2nd suit are huge positives.

[bravejason]

Wouldn't a negative double by west show both majors since both minors had already been bid? If so, then west didn't have the shape to bid a negative double. Is it common to agree that a negative double may show just one major after the opening sequence of 1C (1D)?

 

The 3H rebid by east seems reasonable to me. West already knows east does not have 5 or else east would have opened with a heart.

 

Why doesn't east open with a strong 2 bid? Opening 2C by east seems much more to the point.

 

Why doesn't west overcall 2D with 3C right away? In support of clubs I think west's hand is worth about 13 points.

[johnu]

The 3H rebid by east seems reasonable to me. West already knows east does not have 5 or else east would have opened with a heart.

 

Are you saying that you should make a canape bid with a 5-6 or 5-7 hand that is in the reverse range??? :o Opening the longest suit and then reversing into the shorter suit is the standard systemic bid when you actually have reverse strength. There may be some regional systems where you open a shorter major with reverse strength, but it is not at all common.

[dickiegera]

What's going on with the bidding? N/S are now bidding clubs at the 4 and 5 level???

 

Assuming West is the one who gently corrected to 4♣, you can't get to a club slam with West as a partner who can't evaluate the strength of the hand. :(

[hv=d=e&v=n&b=2&a=1c2dpp3hp4cp5cppp]133|100|This is the correct bidding that we bid. Thank you[/hv]

[dickiegera]

[hv=d=e&v=n&b=2&a=1c2ddp2hp3c]133|100[/hv]

 

 

Does this auction show West holding.

 

It is what I was thinking.

I am probably wrong

 

Thank you

[helene_t]

Yes but obviously East has to bid more than 2h in response to the dbl

[ggwhiz]

Wouldn't a negative double by west show both majors since both minors had already been bid?

 

I play that a negative double shows (at least) 2 places to play, doesn't promise both majors but if we bid one instead it promises 5+. Feels like a 50-50 split with people that don't play it that way but more flexible imo. What do you do after 1♣ - 2♦ to you with a 4-1-3-5 forcing hand?

 

This hand is a pretty clear cut admittedly light negative double in this style with the 5th club in reserve but not so much if the red suits were 2-2

[dickiegera]

Yes but obviously East has to bid more than 2h in response to the dbl

[dickiegera]

Yes

 

3 Hearts could be corrected to 4 Clubs &

4 Hearts to 5 Clubs, or 6 Clubs.

 

This is what I was thinking

 

Thank you

[bravejason]

Are you saying that you should make a canape bid with a 5-6 or 5-7 hand that is in the reverse range??? :o Opening the longest suit and then reversing into the shorter suit is the standard systemic bid when you actually have reverse strength. There may be some regional systems where you open a shorter major with reverse strength, but it is not at all common.

 

 

 

I interpret the 3H bid to be a reverse (showing a strong hand and a 4+ card suit). Since 3H is also a jump, it should show a very strong hand. Is that the correct interpretation of that bid in this auction?

 

To be clear, I think east should have opened with a strong 2 bid. I think he had too much strength for a reverse, but since east opened with a one level bid, what other option did east have to show the strength of his hand?

[johnu]

I interpret the 3H bid to be a reverse (showing a strong hand and a 4+ card suit). Since 3H is also a jump, it should show a very strong hand. Is that the correct interpretation of that bid in this auction?

 

I would expect 5 hearts, 6+ clubs, good suits, and a good looking playing hand. With only 4 hearts, I can't see jumping to 3♥ instead of bidding 2♥.

[bravejason]

I play that a negative double shows (at least) 2 places to play, doesn't promise both majors but if we bid one instead it promises 5+. Feels like a 50-50 split with people that don't play it that way but more flexible imo. What do you do after 1♣ - 2♦ to you with a 4-1-3-5 forcing hand?

...

 

With a good suit, bid the major (potentially risking a 4-3 major suit fit); otherwise cuebid diamonds to show club support (potentially missing a 4-4 major suit fit). I'd expect Partner to have a legitimate club suit. In this situation your method does seem like the better approach.

[bravejason]

I would expect 5 hearts, 6+ clubs, good suits, and a good looking playing hand. With only 4 hearts, I can't see jumping to 3♥ instead of bidding 2♥.

 

I didn't consider the jump to also show a 6-5 shape, but it makes sense now that you mention it.

[Winstonm]

As long as 1C shows at least 3, I see this as a WTP negative double, correcting hearts back to clubs.

[MrAce]

Deleted

[GrahamJson]

Definitely not a negative double, which should have at least tolerance for both unbidden suits, unless you play a style when you double on most strong hands. Also, doubling with good support for partner is not usually a good idea. Partner may pass the double and his experted tricks in clubs (in this example) will not materialise.

 

It seems to me that W should bid 3C, after which it should be easy to reach six.

[johnu]

Definitely not a negative double, which should have at least tolerance for both unbidden suits, unless you play a style when you double on most strong hands. Also, doubling with good support for partner is not usually a good idea. Partner may pass the double and his experted tricks in clubs (in this example) will not materialise.

 

It seems to me that W should bid 3C, after which it should be easy to reach six.

 

After a 1♦ overcall, you can afford to have a negative double show both majors because responder can 1♥/1♠ with only 1 major. After a 2♦ overcall, you don't have that luxury if you only have 1 of the majors. So, common practice is that double shows 2 places to play. Opener needs to be aware that responder may have 4+ support for clubs.

 

On this hand, 6♣ is the goal, but on other hands, 4♠ or a spade partscore is the goal and bidding 3♣ may put up roadblocks in getting there.

[jogs]

IMO Wests hand is a bit weak for a negative double. Dbl would not be wrong but I prefer pass.

 

I don't like East's 3♥ bid, though, I think it shows a purer hand and five hearts.

 

A plausible auctions IMO:

 

pass-dbl

3♦-3♥

4♣-4♦

... (will end in 5♣ or 6♣)

 

After it starts

pass-3♥ (as in the actual auction) I don't think East can stop below slam although it is of course a lot easier when one can see both hands.

-------1♣-2♦

p-p-3♥-p

4♣-p-4♦-p

?

 

This gives E-W a chance at reaching slam. Now West would need to cooperate with 4♠.

 

Also in the bidding box did you interchange some bids between EW and NS?

Why didn't East just rebid 2♥?

[Caitlynne]

I believe the first sin was West's failure to take a bid at his/her first turn. Surely with 5 card support headed by 3 of the top 5 honors, a side singleton, and a side 4 card suit including a prime card supported by a secondary honor, this hand is worth an immediate bid. It may be only 7 HCP, but overall it looks pretty much like a very highly constructive to game invitational raise. You MUST bid.

 

A negative double would be a popular choice as an inconvenient rebid (e.g., some number of hearts) can always be corrected quite comfortably to clubs (partner's first bid suit). But even 3C or 3D is far better than passing.

 

On another matter, I find opener's decision to bid 3H faulty as well. A jump like this should promise a 5 card suit (and, by extension, a 6 card or longer club suit) - a hand with playing strength based largely on distribution and less on power.

With a hand that is close to a strong forcing and artificial 2C opener and is not a true two suiter (but a pseudo 2 suiter), double is surely far superior. Indeed, there is no way that West, who has passed, can produce a 4S bid - and even a 3S bid would be extraordinarily unlikely. If West bails with 2S or 3C, East simply continues with 3H to show something on the order of this East hand.

 

I think reaching the slam is challenging simply because of the heart wastage, but it surely can be done if West bids at his/her first turn. Consider the following auctions:

 

-- (--) 1C (2D)

Dbl (P) 3D (P)

3S (P) 4C (P)

4H (P) 6C All Pass

 

The 4H bid must be a control, not a suit, since West bypassed 3H to bid spades first.

 

-- (--) 1C (2D)

3C (P) 3D (P)

3S (P) 4D (P)

4H (P) 6C All Pass

 

Again, the 4H bid must be a control.

 

-- (--) 1C (2D)

3D (P) 3H (P)

3S (P) 4D (P)

5C (P) 6C All Pass

 

Here, 4H would be an overbid since the 3D cue bid implied the values to raise to 4C. Nevertheless, opener is justified in driving to slam opposite any hand that can bid 3D. Opener's 4D bid was an effort to sniff at a grand slam.

[Winstonm]

Definitely not a negative double, which should have at least tolerance for both unbidden suits, unless you play a style when you double on most strong hands. Also, doubling with good support for partner is not usually a good idea. Partner may pass the double and his experted tricks in clubs (in this example) will not materialise.

 

It seems to me that W should bid 3C, after which it should be easy to reach six.

 

A pretty standard way to play negative doubles (as least, as I was taught :D ) was that this double shows one of two hand types: A) both majors or B) one major and support for opener's suit.

 

As in most standard systems the 1C opening shows 3, support must be 5 in length. So, a pull of a 3H bid to 4C is the same as a direct bid of 4C but shows additionally 4 spades.

[notproven]

1) In standard American, SAYC or 2/1, a negative double guarantees tolerance for the other two suits, unless you have 5+ cards in a major and are too weak to bid at the two level (say, Axxxx Qx xx Qxxx). No exceptions. Period. If West had 10+ points and a slightly chunkier suit, most experts play that a 2♠ bid would be acceptable. Over 1♣ 1♦ West absolutely should bid 1♠ with this hand; it only promises 4♠ and tends to deny ♥.

 

2) In this auction, I don't mind opening 1♣. However, 2♥ would be a reverse (given West's pass). 3♥ shows a more shapely hand.

 

3) West's initial pass is strange. 3♣ is 100%.