Preempt or not

[Oceanss]

Assume you play IMP challenge aga friend, or an IMP team game, no barometer or alike. Your side is white and opps are red and you get this as a dealer:

♠-- ♥QJx ♦Jxxx ♣KJT8xx

.

Question one: what is your bid?? Do you preempt? If you play preempts rule 2 and 3 can you afford a "little lie"?

.

.

.

Question two: If opener passed, how bidding should go? Pard was dealt: AT9 AK98x AKx Ax

.

I ask this is because I'd have no clue how to bid this hand if I as opener passed and pard shows balanced 22-24 HCP.

 

Thank you in advance!

[mike777]

perhaps:

 

3c=6c?

 

or if you prefer:

 

3c=4d(rkc in c)

4s=4nt( qc ask)

5c=6c

[eagles123]

i would pass - 2nd choice 1c

[ahydra]

In my current partnerships we play soundish preempts in 1st and 2nd so I'd have to pass. But playing with a random I don't mind 3C. Then Mike's RKC auction to the slam seems ideal.

 

Starting with (2C-2D)-2N (22-24), I think MSS then punting 5C over the 3NT response might suggest a hand like this. Opener has truly excellent controls so can raise to 6.

 

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

I probably pass initially.

 

How about:

 

2N-3♣ (5 card stayman)

3♥(5♥)-4♠(exclusion)

5♣(1/4)-6♣(bid 7♥ with Q♣)

6♥

 

Yes 6♣ is better than 6♥, but I think 6♥ is where I end up.

[Phil]

Ok, let me get this straight. I'm w/r, have a spade void and a good 6 card club suit? 3C is not a lie; 1C or 4C would be lies.

 

Notice how easy getting to slam is after preempting.

 

Pass just doesn't exist for me.

[Cyberyeti]

Ok, let me get this straight. I'm w/r, have a spade void and a good 6 card club suit? 3C is not a lie; 1C or 4C would be lies.

 

Notice how easy getting to slam is after preempting.

 

Pass just doesn't exist for me.

 

It's very easy to get to the slam on this hand, and no you don't bid 3♣-6♣ as 7 can easily be a spread, but the issue is that if first in you regularly preempt on hands like this, you will miss 6 opposite a bit less, miss 7 opposite hands of this strength on a regular basis, and play in clubs when you want to be somewhere else too often.

 

I will preempt on hands like this, but this particular one, playable in 3 suits without great clubs doesn't look right.

[mike777]

I think missing the boss suit and having ten cards in the minors and at fav vul makes this an easy 3c opener.

 

On top of all of that I actually have a good club suit, not great but good for this vul.

[kenberg]

I will say what I would do. I doubt others agree.

 

As dealer, I pass

After Pass-Pass I open 2C

After Pass-Pass-2C-Pass I bid 3C.

Then the 2C bidder rebids 3H over 4C. Dealer now holds one fine hand but I am inclined to think 4H suffices. The 2C opener, knowing of my hearts and my clubs, will find his way to 6.

 

I don't preempt with that hand, I just don't. I know others do. Holding the big hand, it is big enough for me to start with 2C. Back to the dealer. Even if 2M over 2C shows two of the top three (not everyone agrees that it should) you cannot be that restrictive with a 3C call over 2C. After 2C-2D you never get to show clubs. If it goes 2C-2D-2NT then 3C is Stayman, if it goes 2C-2D-2M then 3C is, for most, a second negative. If you are ever going to bid 3C to show a decent club suit and some values, it has to be over the 2C. I am assuming here that 2C-2D is waiting. For those that play 2C-2D as a positive response of some unknown shape, things might be different.

 

I guess I can make 7H if clubs and hearts are both 3-2, but they may not be and then 6C is safer than 6H. Bidding as I did, we probably end in 6H. Big deal. When we have eight card fits in both hearts and clubs, missing the Q in clubs and missing nothing in heart we probably end in hearts. If we are skilled enough, maybe we can work it out but as for me, probably not. There is some danger of landing in 7H. Might make, but I would just as soon forego the pleasure.

 

 

As I say, the above is my way, probably not a common way. I don't think it is crazy.

 

Oh. If I am playing with someone who opens this 3C I probably would just bid 6C. Presumably 3H over 3C is forcing, but partner would raise 3H to 4H without nearly such good support so, lacking a food way to find out, I probably just leap to 6C.

[MrAce]

I ♥ this bar!

 

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=i%20love%20this%20bar

[Phil]

It's very easy to get to the slam on this hand, and no you don't bid 3♣-6♣ as 7 can easily be a spread, but the issue is that if first in you regularly preempt on hands like this, you will miss 6 opposite a bit less, miss 7 opposite hands of this strength on a regular basis, and play in clubs when you want to be somewhere else too often.

 

I will preempt on hands like this, but this particular one, playable in 3 suits without great clubs doesn't look right.

 

I don't disagree, but if you always look at preempts as potential slam hands in off suits, you won't preempt very often.

[foobar]

Assume you play IMP challenge aga friend, or an IMP team game, no barometer or alike. Your side is white and opps are red and you get this as a dealer:

♠-- ♥QJx ♦Jxxx ♣KJT8xx

.

 

 

Easy 3♣ at this vul. (and even when all white FWIW). Over 3♣, we play that 4♦ is a five step ask for the number of key cards in the suit and outside controls (A/K) using the 0, 1, 1 (1 and one outside), 2, 2 (2 and two outside) scale, and we'll likely end up in 6♣

[GrahamJson]

Pass seems automatic as dealer. After that I suggest 2C-2D-2H-3H followed by some cue bids. Ending in 6H should be easy. Or, if you don't like 2D, which tends to be used as a waiting bid these days, 2C-3C-3H-4H .... This auction gives a better chance of reaching seven, which is a good contract.

 

A 3C opener might be reasonable in third position but as dealer is as likely to screw up partner as the oppo.

[nige1]

Assume you play IMP challenge aga friend, or an IMP team game, no barometer or alike. Your side is white and opps are red and you get this as a dealer:

♠-- ♥ Q J x ♦ J x x x ♣ K J T 8 x x

Question one: what is your bid?? Do you preempt? If you play preempts rule 2 and 3 can you afford a "little lie"?

Few play "rule of 2/3" nowadays. I rank

1. 3♣ = PRE. Heed Terence Reese's advice "A pre-empt known to be weak is a blunt sword". As MIke777 points out, opening 3♣ on this hand simplifies slam bidding.
2. Pass = NAT. Pusillanimous.

Question two: If opener passed, how bidding should go? Pard was dealt:

♠ A T 9 ♥ A K 9 8 x ♦ A K x ♣ A x

I think you still reach a round-suited small slam. The auction might start:

2♣ - 3♣

3♥ - 4♥

[Cyberyeti]

I don't disagree, but if you always look at preempts as potential slam hands in off suits, you won't preempt very often.

 

My point is that I have no reason to suspect that it's my opponents' hand, I'm close to average points and playable in 3 suits with more defence than I would like. Partner is too likely to take a phantom.

 

In 3rd seat it's an obvious preempt.

[Jinksy]

I would prob open 4♣ with this. This is the opps' hand, unless partner happens to show up with AT9 AK98x AKx Ax opposite, and what are the chances of that..?

 

Opposite my 4♣, I'd bid 5.5♣, planning to apologise to P either way.

 

Opposite most people's 3♣ I'd bid 3♥ and prob end in 6.

 

Opposite pass, I'd take my P to a nursing home. You bunch of cravens :P

[kenberg]

I would prob open 4♣ with this. This is the opps' hand, unless partner happens to show up with AT9 AK98x AKx Ax opposite, and what are the chances of that..?

 

Opposite my 4♣, I'd bid 5.5♣, planning to apologise to P either way.

 

Opposite most people's 3♣ I'd bid 3♥ and prob end in 6.

 

Opposite pass, I'd take my P to a nursing home. You bunch of cravens :P

 

A good way to find out just how active an old person can be is to try to take him to a nursing home!

 

Back to the bidding. I had noted that if partner opened 3C and I held the big hand I would probably just bid 6C but I think I have changed my mind and, as you suggest, go with the 3H call. We can always get to 6C if need be. That club ten is important for playing 6C since it means you can survive a 4-1-split either direction, and with the 8 you can even survive a 5-0 split. if on the correct side. But those cards will not always be there, especially if partner is open to imaginative preempts. Playing in hearts, you probably get a spade lead, ruffed, diamond to hand, ruff a spade, cash the remaining heart in dummy, come to hand with a club. If hearts are 3-2 you are home, if not then there is still the possibility of a doubleton Q of diamonds or, as a last resort, the club finesse. If we are sure 3C shows the KJT then I imagine 6C is a safer bet, but I am getting the idea modern preempts make no such promise. Note that if the weak had holds only Qxx of hearts it comes to the same thing.

 

Nice of the opponents to stay out of the bidding with their ten card heart fit. This seems to up the chances for 3-2 splits. Maybe we should be in 7H. Win the spade lead, two rounds of hearts leaving the Q on the board, A, K ruff a clb hight, back to the board, runs club s. Not difficult and not really that unlikely.

 

One more thought. Whether we are to play n 6C or 6H, that heart holding in the weak hand is important. Give the weak hand QJx of spades and a heart void, and 6C may still make, but it gets iffier. And iffier still if the spades are Qxx

[helene_t]

perhaps:

 

3c=6c?

 

or if you prefer:

 

3c=4d(rkc in c)

4s=4nt( qc ask)

5c=6c

I prefer a direct 6c.

 

Even if p has the queen I don't see a way to find a good grand slam. And even if he doesn't have the king, I probably still want to be in 6.

[Cyberyeti]

I prefer a direct 6c.

 

Even if p has the queen I don't see a way to find a good grand slam. And even if he doesn't have the king, I probably still want to be in 6.

 

I want to be in 7 if partner has ♣KQ and ♥Q, and I think I can probably find that out.

 

If partner has ♣KQxxxxx any heart holding except xxx is probably OK, and even that may be OK if they don't lead a spade and partner has a stiff diamond.

[msjennifer]

With the hand playable in three suits,I shall always pass in 1st or 2nd seat.Even in the 3rd seat ,I shall think twice before bidding 3 C.And why presume opponents have spades when I am in the 1st seat? Such a call may lead to a phantom sacrifice by partner.

As per the LTC theory,which I play,I shall open the 22 points hand only 1H.( I open 2C only on at least a balanced 23+ or a hand which has 9 or more winners

 

with a major suited hand and10 or more winners with a minor suit hand).The further bidding does not require much explanation as the hand given has 7 and half losers due to nice 3 card support.I t therefore,as a passed hand,is certainly worth a response of 2C followed later by heart support showing bid.We shall land in 6 hearts after finding the absence of club Queen by using the Spiral RKCB.

[Phil]

My point is that I have no reason to suspect that it's my opponents' hand, I'm close to average points and playable in 3 suits with more defence than I would like. Partner is too likely to take a phantom.

 

In 3rd seat it's an obvious preempt.

 

You have a spade void. You have very little defense.

 

The nice thing about a void is that it means you have cards in other suits but this isn't a disincentive to bid. I can't believe preempting is more attractive if we held 1336?

[the_clown]

100% agree with Phil, passing is not an option for me with this hand NV.

[Caitlynne]

I cannot say it is definitely right or wrong to preempt with 3C, but I can share my philosophy on how to judge whether a holding is suitable for preempting.

 

Whenever you consider a preempt with a non-textbook holding, you need to consider the arguments for and against the preempt. With this hand, there are lots of negatives:

 

1. You only have 6 clubs. A 3-level preempt strongly suggests a 7 card suit.

 

2. The long suit (clubs) is not really strong. Perhaps KQJTxx would be a 6 card suit worthy of a 3 level preempts; KJTxxx is not nearly as good. Think about whether partner will be disappointed in a 3NT contract holding a high club honor doubleton. The KQJTxx suit will be welcomed as it is sure to produce 6 tricks. Things are not so happy with Ax or Qx opposite KJTxxx.

 

3. A preempt makes it difficult to explore for fit in another suit. For this reason, the fewer other suits in which the hand might play well, the more attractive it is to preempt. Ideally, your hand should be suitable for no other suit as trump. It might be reasonable to preempt when your hand might support another suit as trump well. But this hand is suitable for the trump suit to be hearts or diamonds or clubs. That is a strong argument against preempting. On the other hand, at least you don't have good support for spades!

 

The two things 3C has going for it are (1) it MIGHT make things more difficult for the opponents than for partner and (2) you really have very little defense and relatively great offensive potential. (A suit headed by the Ace is not as good for preempting as one headed by the King (or even Queen) simply because the Ace has good potential to take a DEFENSIVE trick.

 

If partner is a passed hand and you are in 3rd chair, then 3C has much more going for it as it is clear the balance of power lies with the opponents.

 

In summary, there seem to be more drawbacks to a first seat preempt than there are benefits, so I would choose to call Pass with this hand in first or second (or fourth) chair. In third chair, I would be tempted to preempt except at unfavorable vulnerability (unless I were playing MatchPoints - in which case the preempt, while risky, has less downside than at IMPs).

[m1cha]

Assume you play IMP challenge aga friend, or an IMP team game, no barometer or alike. Your side is white and opps are red and you get this as a dealer:

♠-- ♥QJx ♦Jxxx ♣KJT8xx

.

Question one: what is your bid?? Do you preempt? If you play preempts rule 2 and 3 can you afford a "little lie"?

 

The suit is one card short but with 3/5 top honors it is not that bad and we are not vulnerable. Yes, I can afford a little lie.

 

Why I really want to preempt here:

I have a void in spades, that is 13 cards out, an average of 4.3 going to my partner, that is, the opponents probably have a 9-card fit in spades.

I have three cards in heards, 10 cards out, an average of 3.3 going to my partner, that is, the opponents more likely have a good fit in hearts than we.

-> Definitely preepmpt here, this is what preempts are for.

 

And I don't share the view that a preempt is making life difficult for my partner. The opposite is true. A preempt shows a very narrow choice of distributions. Partner usually can make not only a good guess of what we can play but also a good guess of what the opponents can play. A better guess than the opponents can make themselves, at least initially. So partner is often in a position to try to make sure opps don't get where they want to be.

 

Okay, so partner is strong and may want to check out a 5-3 fit in hearts? 3♣ - 3♥(forcing) - 4♥. Done.

 

Question two: If opener passed, how bidding should go? Pard was dealt: AT9 AK98x AKx Ax

.

I ask this is because I'd have no clue how to bid this hand if I as opener passed and pard shows balanced 22-24 HCP.

I would probably bid 3♣ over 2♣ but anyway. If the bidding started 2♣ - 2♦ - 2NT for some reason, I would jump to 6♣ with most partners right away due to a lack of more scientific means. We have a total of 30 - 32 HCPs and a long suit and a void, this is probably the right spot.

 

With one partner, if the bidding started as above, we have defined a special sequence using voidwood, it would go

2♣ - 2♦ -

2NT - 3♠* -

4♦** - 4♠^# -

5♣^## - 5♥^& -

5♠^&& - 6♣ -

- -

* one or two minor suits

** preference

^# Voidwood for both minors

^## 1 or 4 keycards, that is, ♥A, ♦AK, ♣A.

^& asking for the ♦♣Qs

^&& none

Actually we have never used this but here it would help us to reach more scientifically a place where a good guess would have led us also, if you see the point. :)

[neilkaz]

100% agree with Phil, passing is not an option for me with this hand NV.

I open 3♣ in first seat as it preempts two opps and doesn't prevent PD from bidding something with a good hand.