ASign the blame, missing game

[Fluffy]

[hv=pc=n&w=sqj4hq62dj32c6542&e=sak65hat9853dk98c&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1d1h2c(forcing)p3cdp3hppp]266|200[/hv]

 

In our system/style, a 2♥ raise on first round shows (6)7-10, this hand clearly doesn't qualify.

[kenrexford]

Advancer, obviously.

 

When God gives you a 3D call...

 

I mean, what else can 3D mean here other than a game try with an undisclused fit?

 

I did not votr because of the "mostly." 100% Advancer, not "mostly."

 

If you thinking that 3D shows 8 diamonds, a void in hearts, two spades, and 3 clubs, just stop it.

[wanoff]

I would say mostly system though West has very good cards for a pass. East is blameless since he can't know of the 9cd heart fit or the solid spades.

I suppose an initial cue bid by West must be outside this range and low frequency. Over the double perhaps West should bid 3M with a bust and 3♦ with game interest in a major.

[Fluffy]

I think I would take 3♦ as natural, but not sure.

[Winstonm]

I think you need to rethink the system when one hand cannot bid and there is a 9-card fit. I don't really see the point in not being able to raise the 1H overcall.

[MrAce]

Gonzalo, you know me for a long time here and my views. I am huge believer of support with support and I believe W had a 2♥ bid. I am not saying that it is clear but I definitely would bid 2♥ by W hand.

 

I mean I see W has very soft values, I agree with this. So some people would have raised if W had better values. But honestly, good values, bad values kind of thinking with a 3334 hand and a simple raise is way too much analysing. What will matter the most is the other hand. I like support with support because pd's hand can turn into a giant against a fit and is not worth a damn thing without it.

 

EDIT: Just saw the system requirement for 2♥. I think he could bid 3♦ over the DBL as well. His hand is now improved by a lot. He has an undisclosed fit Qxx + xxxx ♣ + QJx in the side suit of pd. Pd sees the vulnerability too and should have a decent hand to bid like this. I don't think E doubled with a light hand just because he is short in clubs at these colors.

[neilkaz]

I blame system. If PD cannot scrape up a raise with this he needs to be able to cue 3♦ in response to your X.

[phoenix214]

I think pass instead of 2H is correct - usually this type of hand feels a bit too weak - although showing support is good.

 

Over X i have quite more so 3D seems spot on

[TylerE]

50% each to E and W for playing this system, and a further 50% to West for not bidding 2♥ anyway.

[kenrexford]

I think I would take 3♦ as natural, but not sure.

On that hand, play the awful 3H contract. That way, you have a much more useful invite available.

[rmnka447]

I'm in the support with support camp, so would raise to 2 ♥ with the West hand.

[rhm]

Tough hand

I abhor people raising with such rubbish.

In my experience this leads to over-competing much of the time and sometimes opponents will double you on power.

East will bid again with much less suitable hands and almost always incur a minus score

I also do not think 3♦ would be anything but natural. What else is West supposed to bid with 3♠-1♥-6♦-3♣ and a weak hand.

I would not blame anyone missing this game, but East might bid 4♥ since he needs very little for game.

It is not as risky as it sounds and it does not pay to assume partner is completely broke and it Looks like West meager values are outside of clubs.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Jinksy]

If 3♦ is natural, I would bid 4♥ in preference to three. P's come in with an unfavourable double at the three level - surely this shows possible game interest? Meanwhile, our crappy 6/40 count seems to have improved to a crappy 6/30 count. How much better a hand can we have for our initial pass?

[kenrexford]

What else is West supposed to bid with 3♠-1♥-6♦-3♣ and a weak hand.

 

Rainer Herrmann

Really? You are giving up any ability to make game tries in the majors to avoid the discomfort of choosing between two tolerable major contracts with a call into a suit that could be facing a void in a rare, unfortunate situation?

[ggwhiz]

The 2♣ bid may be forcing but even 1 level overcalls are not cheesy at this vul.

 

2♥ stands out to me on a now or never basis. I don't know of anyone that has an agreement that 3♦ instead of 3♥ shows a soft shapeless hand that should have raised hearts earlier and east cannot be sure of the heart fit or ANY cover cards in the actual auction. Indeed south may have been ready to smash 3♥.

[mr1303]

If 3D is definitely some sort of "I can't bid game myself but don't want to make a weakish 3H bid", then 3D is clearcut.

 

If 3D could be taken as natural, then it's awkward. The west hand has clearly improved, but it can't bid game by itself.

[jogs]

[hv=pc=n&w=sqj4hq62dj32c6542&e=sak65hat9853dk98c&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1d1h2c(forcing)p3cdp3hppp]266|200[/hv]

 

In our system/style, a 2♥ raise on first round shows (6)7-10, this hand clearly doesn't qualify.

Both at fault for this agreement. Agreement probably okay for uncontested auction.

Partly you guys were unlucky that ♠ QJx was worth two tricks. Can't be known during the auction.

[helene_t]

3d might be choice of strain with 42 majors or it could be natural. It doesn't show this hand.

The system is to blame though. Once opps have shown half the deck we stop counting points.

[kenrexford]

Those who want 3D to be natural want to bid 2H earlier. 3D as a game try is contextually needed, IMO, because the raises are sound. If you play sound raises, you need this 3D. If you raise lught, 3D as natural makes more sense.

[neilkaz]

Those who want 3D to be natural want to bid 2H earlier. 3D as a game try is contextually needed, IMO, because the raises are sound. If you play sound raises, you need this 3D. If you raise light, 3D as natural makes more sense.

 

Agreed 100%

[Winstonm]

Tough hand

I abhor people raising with such rubbish.

In my experience this leads to over-competing much of the time and sometimes opponents will double you on power.

East will bid again with much less suitable hands and almost always incur a minus score

I also do not think 3♦ would be anything but natural. What else is West supposed to bid with 3♠-1♥-6♦-3♣ and a weak hand.

I would not blame anyone missing this game, but East might bid 4♥ since he needs very little for game.

It is not as risky as it sounds and it does not pay to assume partner is completely broke and it Looks like West meager values are outside of clubs.

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

I quite agree that this hand is rubbish and is not worth a call - if RHO passes. But once RHO has made a free 2/1 and LHO has shown an opening bid, the partner's I play with usually understand that there is not a lot of value left in the deck for me to hold so the only thing of value I can show is a fit.

 

If you can't make a simple raise to show a fit in a contested auction, the system is at fault IMO.

[rhm]

Really? You are giving up any ability to make game tries in the majors to avoid the discomfort of choosing between two tolerable major contracts with a call into a suit that could be facing a void in a rare, unfortunate situation?

Really?

When the bidding starts

 

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1d1h2cp3c]133|100[/hv]

 

game tries are the least of my worries.

On frequency grounds alone competing effectively for the part-score is and the forms of scoring does not matter here.

If you are reserving important bids for game tries on this occasion you are getting your priorities wrong and it looks to me your judgement got compromised by the outcome of the actual deal.

Such an occurrence is likely to occur every second leap year.

North after all opened the bidding, South responded forcing at the two level.

East might raise 3♥ to game, based on his exceptional controls and distribution, but I said it is a tough deal for East-West.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

I quite agree that this hand is rubbish and is not worth a call - if RHO passes. But once RHO has made a free 2/1 and LHO has shown an opening bid, the partner's I play with usually understand that there is not a lot of value left in the deck for me to hold so the only thing of value I can show is a fit.

 

If you can't make a simple raise to show a fit in a contested auction, the system is at fault IMO.

Sure your high card points tend to limited, but your distributional potential values are not severely restricted by opponents bidding.

If I held ♠Kxxxx ♥Qxx ♦x ♣xxxx I would raise and I guess you would as well, but with 3334♣ ?

♠Kxxxx ♥Qxx ♦x ♣xxxx will play 1-2 tricks better than the actual West hand

How your partner will ever find out what you really got escapes me.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[aguahombre]

I abhor people raising with such rubbish.

Rainer Herrmann

I am happily in the abhorrent camp.